ON
DOCTRINE INFORMATION
The BAD NEWS
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2008
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All responses labeled ON DOCTRINE NOTE are by Gary A. Hand unless stated differently
#1
Dear Gary,
I am confused. I thought that as Christians, we are supposed to encourage and uplift our Christian
brothers and sisters. In fact i am sure that it is written that unless we are doing this then we should keep
our mouths closed.
Please tell me who commissioned you to publically criticise Brother Hagin, Brother Roberts, Brother
Copeland etc.
I read a list of your critique of these men and their so called teachings, but in all truth, you have totally
taken their words and miss quoted them.
God Himself mades us in His likeness and in His image. He ordained Adam to be the god of this world.
Adam in his disobedience, and in his ability to choose, handed that position to the deceiver, satan. Now
we were to be the god of this world, but we gave it up. Now you cannot argue or dispute this cause it is
a fact. Little g in god does not infer we are God.
The authority of mankind in this world was now given to satan who is now the god of this world.
Jesus only came to this earth for three reasons.
1) to save mankind from spiritual death
2) to retrieve those Saints locked up in Paradise
3) to restore Spiritual Authority back to mankind.
I don't know about you, but my bible tells me that Jesus' last words were that it was finished. What was
finished?
The redemption of mankind, the restoration of what was taken when Adam fell. What was taken when
Adam fell?
1) The ability to live forever spiritually and physically.
2) The ability to have full health
3) The ability to have all you need in every area of your life.
So what was restored when Jesus said it was finished?
1) The ability live forever spiritually. We are made in Gods image and God is spirit.
2) The ability to have full health. God created our bodies to heal themselves. eg. if you cut your finger,
it will heal itself.
Remember Jesus just touch the soldiers head after the ear had been cut off and instantly it was healed
as if nothing had happened.
3) The ability to have all you need.What do you need to live? i know i need a roof over my head, i need
food in my belly, clothes on my back money in my wallet and i know i need to have more than i need
so that I can give to others and their needs. If i only have enough, i am less likely to be a giver because
I would need that food or that money.
You see if I am going to follow Jesus, then I need to listen to his words and live by those words. Jesus
was the word. Jesus said when you see me you see the father.
Brother, everytime you open your mouth you create. God made us in his image, and in His likeness.
God did not create from a thought, He created from His words and He made us like Himself. We
create through our words.
If i speak words of sickness over my life, then sickness will enter my life. It is a fact whether you believe
that or not.
Kenneth Copeland would never claim to complete the work that Jesus did after the cross. If you
honestly believe that, then you have been deceived because his teachings and writings always point to
Jesus. Kenneth probably said that he could of gone to the cross but he could never have beaten satan
because only He who knew no sin could have taken our sin. And only He who was God could of
defeated satan. I think you just misunderstood what was said.
It is only through Jesus that we have the authority to speak to evil things and they must stop and flee.
The scriptures are very clear about that. And so is Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, T D Jakes, and
all word of faith preachers.
God is not a man that He should lie.
Read your bible and realise that faith is God's doctrine He wrote the bible. Everything is done by faith.
When you fall in love with Jesus and Gods' Word you suddenly have hope. When you have hope, you
put your faith in God and His promises( His Word)
Man did not create a law of faith, God Did.
Does satan have greater authority over this earth?
No, he only has authority over the people in it that do not choose Jesus to be Lord and saviour of their
lives. Satans only reign is found in the minds of men and women. Hence, why we were told to choose
this day whom we will serve. satans power is not on the saved, but on those who choose to go a
different way than God.
This is what the Word teaches and what all faith preachers teach.
I do not know what you have personally experienced to make you so angry toward faith teachers or
why you feel it is your calling to attack these strong and courageous men of God, but there is no reward
in this.
If you truly believe in your heart that these men are wrong, then why not pray about it and trust God to
do the rest. I am sure that you know that God is far more powerful than any evil in the world.
You may say to me that someone needs to speak out to save all the "gullible" people in this world. I
would say to you, that God has not stopped these faith preachers because they are teaching a truth. A
truth that satan has been able to keep hidden for a very long time.
We have become such a watered down generation of people that we believe that if bad things happen
to us it is somehow in Gods plan. We, the church have even accepted this as truth, teach it from our
pulpits and even believe that sometimes we cannot know why God does what He does.
Brother, the deception is found in taking away from God's Word exactly what the word says.
Kenneth Copeland has been taken out of context in order to discredit him and his ministry. I know I
can recall this happening before. That is right, it happeneed to Jesus, when He was in Ministry, It
happened to the disciples, in fact Jesus Himself warned His disciples that they would suffer for the sake
of the Word.
I write this to You not as a chance to slap you around or to even have my say, but to encourage to
think and pray considerably before you continue to attack those brothers and sisters of the faith.
Remember that as often as you hurt a brother or sister in Christ, you are actually hurting Jesus Himself
because Jesus lives in them.
As far money is concerned, you must really find out the facts from more than just opinion. Can you tell
me how much money the Copelands have blessed into others lives? No , i suppose not. How many
other ministries have had financial support from his ministry?
If you become a plumber or an electrician, or a computer technician, would you expect to get paid for
what you do? Of course you would. You must live and pay your bills just like every one else.
So why is it suddenly a crime for a preacher to be paid and paid well for what he/she does? we have
people in the world who run big organisations that hold big postions and are paid huge sums of money
to do what they do. They are not under such a strong scrutiny as these faith teachers.
Being a preacher is a very demanding job. He is available to many people 24hrs a day and his job
requires many resources. How do you pay for these things?
If these preachers need to travel the quickest way is to fly.
If they have planes in their ministry, wouldn't you agree that they are necessary? I would.
I know for myself, when I go to church and i hear a great sermon, I will go and buy it to listen to later. I
pay for that Cd. Is that wrong? Of course not. I heard the sermon already for free even if i paid my
tithe, I did not pay for the Word. Did they get that CD that i buy for free? No, they had to pay for the
blank CD and the electricity to burn it.
If people can go to a Book shop and buy books on murder mysteries, biographies, Positive thinking
and any other topic you can think of, why is it wrong for faith preachers to sell books and DVD's and
CD's?
It isn't.
The only problem that is evident here is that 'feeling' people experience when there is 'envy' or
'jealousy'. The 'feeling' that makes us think that it is greedy or taking advantage of people.
How many people could buy books from faith preachers and read them and get saved into the
Kingdom Of God?
How many people would sit down read their books, meditate on their writings, line them up with the
Word and then have the light go on and suddenly understand. That is what all the books, tapes,cd's,
dvd's are all about. Yes they make these ministries money, but ministries cost money to run, just like the
tithe pays the bills of a church.
Please, Gary, I cannot tell you what to do because evrything you do is your choice. But, please rethink
your approach to your fellow Christians.
We are all here for a short time and we really only have one commission.
To go into all the world and to make disciples of all men.
God doesn't want us to waste our time shooting down our brothers and sisters. He wants us saving the
lost.
Gary,
I pray that God will bless your life in every area and that as you grow closer to Jesus you will see His
clear direction for your life. I pray that new doors will open and you will discover new and powerful
ways to bring people into the Kingdom of God. I pray for good health in your life and the life of your
family. I pray that all your needs will be met above and beyond so that you will be blessed and so you
will be a blessing to others. I pray for clarity in all your decisions and I pray for the peace that passes all
understanding to be upon your life.
In Jesus name I pray, Amen.
Australia
[34-Vol 1]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
You have presented the contradiction regarding what you claim to believe and what you actually
believe. If criticism is forbidden to me, then it is also forbidden to you. I have never claimed to have
been commissioned by anyone in relation to the content of the On Doctrine website, so I will return the
same question to you regarding your criticism of me.
There are a number of statements that you have made and I will consider them in order:
1. "He ordained Adam to be the god of his world."
2. "Adam . . . handed that position (of god of this world) to the deceiver, satan."
3. "Now we were to be the god of this world, but we gave it up."
4. "The authority of mankind in this world was now given to satan."
"Jesus . . . came to this earth,"
5. " . . to restore Spiritual Authority back to mankind."
"What was restored when Jesus said it was finished?"
6. "The ability to live forever spiritually."
7. "The ability to have all you need in every area of your life."
8. "Brother, everytime you open your mouth you create."
9. "God did not create from a thought, he created from His words."
10. "We create through our words."
11. "It is only through Jesus that we have the authority to speak to evil things and they must stop."
12. "Man did not create a law of faith, God did."
13. S"atan's only reign is found in the minds of men and women."
14. "We have become such a watered down generation of people that we believe that if bad things
happen to us it is somehow in gods plan."
In relation to the above 14 statements, none of them have a biblical foundation. They are presented to
you by your teachers, but their foundation is in the revelations claimed to have been received by those
teachers, not the statements in the Scripture. A number of those statements are denied by the Scripture,
and to accept them as being true means that what God has stated in the Scripture becomes a lie. Your
theology is faced with the same problem as found in current Mormon doctrine. Mormon doctrine was
originally based on the Book of Mormon, however current Mormon theology and the elements of the
Mormon gospel cannot be found in the Book of Mormon, but are based on the pronouncements of
their "living prophets." The same process has occurred in relation to Word of Faith theology, because it
is not based on foundational Scripture, but on the pronouncements of past and present "prophets" who
are creating their own doctrines based on their claims of revelation from God. In reality they are writing
their own scripture, and if what they claim to have received through direct revelation is true, it should be
added to the Bible to make a more complete revelation. That is not acceptable.
POINTS 1, 2, 3, 4
Adam as the god of this world and authority given to Satan.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that God created Adam as a god and the god of this
world.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that Adam handed the position of god of this world to
Satan.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that the future progeny of Adam were to be gods of this
world.
Please provide one biblical reference stating that the authority of mankind in this world was given to
Satan.
Reading the biblical narrative, you will find that it was God who changed the relationship of Adam to
the earth, (the original relationship He had established Himself without the knowledge or
approval of Adam), from that of a representative ruler-caretaker to a servant of the earth
itself:
"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion
over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every
creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He
created them."
Genesis 1:26-27 (NKJV)
Not only was Adam's position determined before he was made by God, his place in the earth was also
determined by God, his position as a representative regent was granted by allowance from God and he
was also given a job as caretaker of the Garden of Eden, since he was not established as an absolute
ruler simply giving instructions to his minions:
"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it."
Genesis 2:15.
Adam was given instructions and orders requiring obedience, by which he was required to
acknowledge the preeminence and authority of God to make any determination that He should choose.
Adam was a subservient created being who could not act outside the parameters granted to him by His
creator and was subject to the penalties imposed by God in relation to disobedience:
"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but
of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall
surely die.'"
Genesis 2:16-17 (NKJV)
Adam and Eve were created in a lower position than the angelic beings that God had previously
created, who are not gods.
"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? For You have made
him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him
to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, all sheep and
oxen - even the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea that pass through the paths
of the seas."
Psalm 8:4-8 (NKJV)
It was attempt of the highest angelic being, Satan who also was not a god, to usurp the place of
God:
"How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cu down to the
ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I
will exalt my throne above the stars of god; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the
farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most High.'"
Isaiah 14:12-14 (NKJV)
It was Satan who made the same claim when he tempted Eve:
"Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of
it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like god, knowing good and evil.'"
Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)
If Eve and Adam were already gods, why did the serpent say that they would be like God, and
why didn't they know the difference between good and evil, since your teachers claim that they were
created as duplicates of God, and God seems to have known the difference?
Your teachers make the statements that you claim, but the Bible does not. They seem like proper
statements, because they conform to the manner in which you wish to view yourself and the position
you wish to assume in relation to authority over the physical and spiritual world, including the highest
and most powerful of God's angelic creations, Satan.
It was God who changed the relationship of Adam to the earth, not Adam ceding authority to
Satan:
"Then to Adam He said, 'Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from
the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ""You shall not eat of it."" Cursed
is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, an you shall eat the herb of the field.
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken;
for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.'"
Genesis 3:17-19 (NKJV).
Kenneth Copeland teaches that God has no authority to act in relation to the earth, except through a
person of faith, because to act against a world owned by Satan would be "illegal".
(Adam) "He was not subordinate to God ... was walking as a god with the authority of a
god. ... What he said went. What he did, counted. ...bowed his knee to Satan and put Satan up above
him, then there wasn't anything God could do about it, because a god had placed (Satan) there."
The Force of Love, tape 02-0028
"God's on the outside looking in. He doesn't have any legal entree into the earth. The thing
don't belong to Him. You see how sassy the Devil was in the presence of God in the book of Job? God
said, 'Where have you been?' Wasn't any of God's business. He [Satan] didn't even have to answer if
he didn't want to God didn't argue with him a bit! You see, this is the position that God's been in, might
say, 'Well, if God's running things He's doing a lousy job of it.' He hadn't been running 'em, except
when He's just got, you know, a little bit of a chance."
Image of God in You III, Kenneth Copeland, audiotape 011403, side 1
Supposedly, according to Kenneth Copeland, at the point that Adam and Eve sinned, their
positions as gods were transferred to Satan, so he became the god and owner of the earth and the
"No Trespassing" signs went up preventing God from acting in relation to the earth.
However, at the same time, Adam and Eve were not persons of faith, and in point of fact, there were
no persons of faith in the earth through which God could work, but, amazingly enough, God seemed to
violate that "legal" prohibition and came to the earth after the fact (an earth which Kenneth
Copeland claims He no longer owned and over which He had no control) and cursed Adam and Eve,
the serpent, Satan, the earth itself and every living animal - and Satan never made a claim that God had
no "legal" right to do what He did.
Kenneth Copeland's teaching is not only a little shaky, it is absolute nonsense because it does not
conform to the Scriptural account of the fall, but it also does not conform to reality. Apparently,
according to Kenneth Copeland, it is "illegal" for God to act against a world owned by Satan, but it was
not "illegal" for Satan to act against a world and human beings created and owned by God. Where are
there any statements in the Scripture that confirm Kenneth Copeland's claim? Why is it that you do not
follow the logical conclusion of Kenneth Copeland's absurd statement?
Satan was in the earth in his fallen state prior to the fall of Adam and Eve and he was placed there by
God as a result of his fall. Not only was that the case, but his authority in the earth was subject to the
good pleasure of God and the authority of Jesus Christ, prior to the atonement:
"And the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, all that he has is in your power (hand); only do not lay a
hand on his person.'"
Job 1:12
"And He said to them, 'I saw Satan fall like lighting from heaven.'"
Luke 10:18-19 (NKJV).
cf. Isaiah 14:12-17
The same issue is found in the incidents in Job, that is seen at the fall of Adam and Eve. Satan was
commanded to appear before God, he was asked a question by God which he did not refuse to answer
and he was obedient to the restrictions placed on his treatment of Job - and, again, he never made any
claim that God had no "legal" right to institute any prohibition on his actions. Mankind can
be as "sassy" to God they might wish and not suffer any immediate consequences, just as
Satan has been given the same privilege since his fall as well. Kenneth Copeland's teaching once again
fails the test.
According to Kenneth Copeland, the only difference between "little god" and "God" is a matter of
knowledge. The more knowledge that is acquired, the greater become the abilities of the "little god"..
"'Well, He created all those planets, how come you can't create something?' You don't know as much
about it as He does. He has a greater working knowledge of that faith than you do. But we're learning.
Our time is coming. And in some ways its already here."
Kenneth Copeland, Cornerstone Church with John Hagee, San Antonio, Texas, August 18, 1999.
Kenneth Copeland claims that his abilities already include the capability of giving life to dead
plants:
SEE: The Tree That Faith Grew
www.ondoctrine.com/unquotes/copek002.htm
So, the "little god" is a creator of life from nothing, just like God, although he cannot do the same with
human beings, yet. But, we only have Kenneth Copeland's word in the matter without any proof that he
ever created life in any entity, just as you have no proof that he has ever received a revelation from
God.
Kenneth Copeland speaks exactly what he means:
"You really cannot ever come to that place were you let this mind be in you which was also in Christ
Jesus, who thought it not robbery to be called equal with God. Let this mind be in Kenneth Copeland,
Oh my goodness, Ah! that thinks its not robbery to be called equal with God."
Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory, Monday 29th January 2001, GOD TV
Benny Hinn has weighed in on the issue as well, stating:
"Now are you ready for some real revelation knowledge? OK. Now watch this: He laid aside His
divine form. . . so one day I would be clothed on earth with the divine form. Kenneth Hagin has a
teaching. A lot of people have problems with it. Yet it is absolute truth. Kenneth Copeland has a
teaching. Many Christians have put holes in it, but it's divine truth. Hagin and Copeland say: You are
god. Ye are gods. 'Oh! I can't be god.' Hold it. Let's bring balance to this teaching. The balance is
being taught by Hagin. It's those that repeat him that mess it up. the balance is being taught by
Copeland, who is my dear friend, but it's those that repeat what he says hat are messing it up.
You see there brother? When Jesus was on earth, the Bible says that first he disrobed Himself of
the divine form. He, the limitless God, became a man, that we men, may become as He is".
Benny Hinn, Our Position in Christ (Orlando: Orlando Christian Center, 1990), cassette tape
#A031190
Benny Hinn, along with Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland have integrated Mormon
exaltation theology into their teaching, and is noted by the last sentence quoted from Benny Hinn, which
represents the popular Mormon saying, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may
become.
Benny Hinn is wrong on two counts, because man cannot attain to godhood and will not be clothed in
the divine form. The only recourse he had to support his statements was the claim that he had
received "revelation knowledge," because his statements are not found in the Scripture.
The definitions that you accept are fundamental to the error of your position. You believe that being
made in the image of God is the same as having or being made with the same nature as God and then
you erroneously assert that God was making an exact duplicate of Himself when He created Adam, an
assumption that is not found in the Scripture but is only asserted by your teachers.
"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself... He was not a little
like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is as much like
God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. ...Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in
the flesh."
Following the Faith of Abraham, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, Fort
Worth, Texas, 1989, tape 01-3001, side 1.
If God was attempting to make an exact duplicate of Himself, then He did a very poor job. You
may claim that being a "little god"; "does not infer that we are God," but that is not what Kenneth
Copeland claims. He states that Adam was "God manifested in the flesh" which makes him the equal to
Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the equal to God because Jesus Christ is part of the Trinitarian
godhead. Since you are claiming that you have been restored to the position of Adam before the fall,
then you are claiming that you are a god, the same kind of god that Kenneth Copeland claims that
Adam was and that is a god who is the same as Jesus Christ who is the same as the Creator God,
because He was the Creator. Adam was not made as a duplicate of God, since Adam sinned and God
cannot. The only duplicates are those members of the Trinity and are the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy
Spirit. There are no others who are equal to or even approach equality to the members of the
Godhead. The problem is, you don't know what Kenneth Copeland is teaching and you don't accept
what the Bible says about the nature of created humanity.
What you are actually accepting is the spin adopted by Kenneth Copeland and others, by which a form
of Mormon pre-existence theology is grafted into the creation narrative. In Mormon theology, god is
actually an exalted man who is the same size as an actual human being (sound familiar to Kenneth
Copeland's description of God?) who has a wife and they procreate spiritual children who are the
spirits of human beings and are of the same nature as themselves because they are literal children.
However, Adam was not procreated, he was created apart from the substance of God and from
elements created by God that were not God or from His nature. The Christian is a child of God by
adoption, Ephesians 1:5, not by descent. God adopts Christians as His children, because human beings
are not the same as He and are not of His lineal descent.
POINT 5, 6, 7
I don't have any problem with reasons 1 and 2 of the three regarding why Jesus came to earth. But
the third is quite problematic, because you presume that the atonement is about "Spiritual
Authority" and the ability to create your own world according to how you define it to be, which
you specify in your next statement as being the restoration of what was taken (from Adam by Satan)
when he fell.
However, since you assume that the atonement was about your physical needs and your authority and
ability to attain to a comfort level which you define to be needful and sufficient, then we part company.
You must deal with the reality that there are many Christians throughout history and living today who
have not and do not have the things that might be needful for life to continue, because they are or were
starving or they are or were martyrs or they are or were physically or mentally handicapped or sick
unto death. You may wish to explain those situations, like your teachers do, by claiming those people
just didn't have enough faith, but that is a cruel assertion that does not have a biblical foundation and is
an explanation that fails the test. You are forced to consign all of the apostles and every subsequent
Christian throughout history, who became ill and died or who was forced into poverty and death by
oppressive governments, into the category of sub-standard faithless failures. Unfortunately you have not
considered the logical conclusions of your beliefs, so you do not understand where your beliefs
ultimately take you.
If the atonement brings immediate salvation, why doesn't it bring immediate, wealth, health and spiritual
authority? Why is it that Salvation, which is the greatest and most important element of the atonement,
occurs immediately, while those other elements must be sought after for years, while individuals seek to
buy the faith through their giving to ministries in order to obtain what it is claimed that they already
have? There is something very wrong in that approach to the atonement.
Jesus Christ never promised full health or the supply for every need in this life. If He had made that
promise, why was Stephen martyred instead of living the good life, Acts 7? Why did Jesus Christ not
heal the apostle Paul? The apostle Paul asked Him to do so, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, but the reality is
that He told the apostle Paul that He would not be healed. Why wasn't the apostle Paul rich so he
would not have to work in order to support the ministry, Acts 18:3; 20:34; 1 Corinthians 4:11-13; 1
Thessalonians 2:9? He wasn't able to speak to his wallet so it would be filled with money? Why was
Timothy's stomach ailment not healed, 1 Timothy 5:23? Why didn't the apostle Paul heal Trophimus, 2
Timothy 4:20? Why did the apostle Paul travel throughout Asia for years, 1 Corinthians 16, taking a
collection for the saints in Jerusalem who were starving and persecuted instead of teaching them the
means of obtaining the riches, health and security that they could have had through the use of their faith
and the proper application of the atonement? Was he uniformed about the magical means? Then there
were the Macedonians who gave "out of their deep poverty" in order to provide for the
saints at Jerusalem, 2 Corinthians 8:1-5. Why didn't they give "out of their abounding
riches" which, according to your theology, they could have obtained by the use of their faith?
Were they "less likely to be a giver" because of their poverty? Did they bring poverty into
their lives because they had negative thoughts and spoke negative words, but were still able to give?,
"For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely
willing, imploring us with much urgency that we would receive the gift and the fellowship of the
ministering to the saints. And not only as we had hoped, but they first gave themselves to the Lord, and
then to us by the will of God," 2 Corinthians 8:3-5 (NKJV).
Since they were so poor, they should have been less like to give, but they gave in spite of their poverty.
The Corinthians had every good thing, including wealth, but they were less likely to give and had to be
instructed by the apostle Paul. The issue goes straight back to the impoverished and persecuted
believers in Jerusalem, who, according to your theology must have missed the faith message and chose
to be in a destitute position and required help from outside sources because of their lack of faith, and
none of the apostles were able to discern the difficulty or realize the solution. Then, there are those
apostles, none of who were rich or had enough, most of whom were martyred and even the apostle
John was exiled on the barren island of Patmos and was so frail during the last days of his life at
Ephesus that he was carried to church. Even the apostle that Jesus loved seems to have missed the faith
message.
So, what do you think that Kenneth Copeland claims that he could have done if he had gone to the
cross? Obviously he could not have died for the sins of the world, because he teaches that the
atonement was accomplished in hell, not on the cross.
- "Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had
of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could ave
paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that." -- Kenneth Copeland
The reality is that what you are being taught is that when Adam sinned, he not only forfeited the
earth to Satan, he forfeited his God nature to Satan and took on the nature of Satan. So, salvation for
you is the removal of the actual nature of Satan from man and the restoration of the actual nature of
God within man. In other words, the death of Jesus Christ is said to be a payment to Satan in order to
obtain mankind's God nature from him. This is said to have occurred on the cross, when Jesus Christ
took on the actual sin nature of Satan, and then He went to hell for three days where He was tortured
by Satan and then He "died spiritually,' requiring that He be "born again" so
He could defeat the devil.
The spirit of Jesus Christ was not under the control of Satan, it was under the control of God according
to the statement of Jesus Christ:
"And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit My
spirit.' Having said this, He breathed His last."
Luke 23:46 (NKJV)
The statement of Peter:
"who when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but
committed Himself to Him who judges righteously. . ."
1 Peter 2:23 (NKJV)
Kenneth Copeland teaches what is known as the "Ransom Theory" of the atonement, and
presumes that Satan had some type of right of appeasement by which he required a payment for the
return of godhood to man or else God could not provide salvation. That is a heretical belief not
supported in the Scripture, but is specifically denied by the direct statement of God:
- "For who is like me? Who will arraign me? And who is that shepherd who will withstand
Me?'
- Jeremiah 50:44 (NKJV)
The sin of Adam and Eve was against God, not Satan, so Satan as the instigator and participant in
the first sin of mankind, and as the first sinner himself, has no claim on God. It is God who has every
claim on Satan, from such claims he cannot escape. It was God who pronounced the curses on Adam
and Eve, the serpent and on Satan, and Satan never asserted that God had no legal right to do so. God
does not need a right or some legal ruling in order to act, because He is the right and He is the
law.
Actually, Kenneth Copeland is saying that he could have defeated Satan. There is no other conclusion.
You either take Kenneth Copeland for what he says or you do not, and if you do not, you are only
kidding yourself. According to Kenneth Copeland, when Jesus Christ "whipped Satan" in
hell, He had already divested Himself of any aspects of Deity and was just a man, just like Kenneth
Copeland, and as a result Kenneth Copeland claims that he could have done the same thing as Jesus
Christ and he tells you that you could have done the same thing.
- "Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God ... They crucified Me
for
- claiming I was God. I didn't claim that I was God; I just claimed that I walked with Him and that
- He was in Me. Hallelujah! That's what you're doing ..."
- "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, February 1987, p.9
Again, Kenneth Copeland says exactly what he means:
- "The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, 'Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and
don't let your tradition trip you up.' He said, 'Think this way - a twice-born man whipped
Satan in his own domain.' And I threw my Bible down like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A born-again
man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.' He said, 'You are the very image, the
very copy of that one.' I said, 'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on
in there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I could have done the
same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could
have done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too.'"
- Substitution and Identification, tape 00-0202, side 2
This teaching regarding Jesus Christ taking on the nature of Satan and dying spiritually violates the
nature of the Godhead. Jesus Christ is God the Son,
- "And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.
Jesus Christ is the second person of the Godhead and He possesses all of the attributes of the
Godhead in concert with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and
holy. He is immutable (unchanging), Malachi 3:6. He is unchanging in His essence, for to change would
mean that He would not have been deity,
- "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of
lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning," James 1:17 (NKJV). "
Jesus Christ is sinless:
- "Which of you convicts me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe
Me?"
- John 8:46 (NKJV)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever," Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV). But you,
and Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn and the numerous other Word of Faith teachers
claim that Jesus Christ and the Godhead do change, that the Godhead becomes evil and perverted by
incorporating within itself the very nature of Satan, requiring that it be "born again,"
because you cannot separate Jesus Christ from the Godhead. If Jesus Christ took on the sin nature of
Satan, then so did the Godhead and so did the members of the Godhead. Kenneth Copeland teaches
that God does change and the Godhead changes, because he claims that the Godhead can be
separated from itself - broken as to its very innate nature:
- "The spirit of Jesus accepting that sin, and making it to be sin, he separated from his God,
and in that moment, he's a mortal man. Capable of failure. Capable of death."
- Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne? (Fort Worth: Kenneth
Copeland Ministries), cassette tape #02-0017
It is not that Jesus Christ became just a man while on the cross, Kenneth Copeland says that Jesus
Christ told him that He was not God at any time while on the earth:
- "Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God ... They crucified Me
for
- claiming I was God. I didn't claim that I was God; I just claimed that I walked with Him and that
- He was in Me. Hallelujah! That's what you're doing ..."
- "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, February 1987, p.9
Kenneth Copeland is inserting another form of Mormon doctrine into his teaching, because the
Mormon godhead is composed of three separate gods who associate with each other by choice and
are one only in purpose. The Christian Godhood is much different, because it is one God within which
are three persons, who are not one by association but are one in being. A definition of the Godhead is
One, indivisible as to its very nature. It is not possible that any part of the Godhead could not be less
than very God at any point, because the Godhood is one in unity.
So, you have a Jesus Christ who divested Himself of His deity and became just a man, a Jesus Christ
who's spirit became actual sin and a Jesus Christ who was removed from the Godhead. So, since Jesus
Christ became the worst vile sinner, who accomplished the atonement for Him? Again, you have not
thought about the logical conclusions of what you have been taught and believe about Jesus Christ and
the Godhead. The teaching that Jesus Christ at one point was not God is heresy of the highest
degree.
Your teachers claim that the atonement was accomplished in hell, a claim that they all make without a
biblical foundation to do so. Your teachers claim that Jesus Christ was tortured in hell by Satan and the
demons and then died spiritually in hell, The Bible makes no such statements. I will accept one verse as
a confirmation. The Bible says that the atonement was accomplished on the cross, not in hell:
- "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now
he has reconciled in the body of His flesh though death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above
reproach in His sight . . ." Colossians 1:21-22 (NKJV)
- "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered
outside the gate." Hebrews 13:12 (NKJV)
- "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once
for all." Hebrews 10:10 (NKJV).
- cf. Colossians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 1:17, Ephesians 2:16
POINTS 8, 9, 10, 11
Going back to the Scripture, you will find that you and your teachers have redefined the manner in
which God creates in order to support your theology. You define Jesus Christ's act of creating as
having "created from His words." And you claim that "He made us like
Himself," therefore "We create through our words." Those relationships are
incorrect, because your definition of the manner in which Jesus Christ creates is deeply flawed. You
adopt those definitions as the means of creation, because you believe that words are containers of
power which is faith, and if you use the right words and apply your faith you can be a creator just like
God, which is exactly what Kenneth Copeland is teaching. In your theology, words convey the creative
power, and that power exists apart from yourself and apart from God - creative acts require the power
of faith contained in words to be accomplished. In your belief system, even Jesus Christ and God are
subject to the proper use of words in order to create, and, in fact, according to Kenneth Copeland,
even God had to use faith in order to create, which is another of his non-biblical teachings.
The Scripture has a very different definition of how the creation was accomplished:
". . . who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all
things by the word of His power . . ." Hebrews 1:3a (NKJV).
There is a universe of difference between the "power of His word" and the "word of
His power". You presume a theology based on the idea that Jesus Christ created by the power
contained in words, but the Scripture says that He stated words that represented the creative power
contained within Himself. Words are not the creative power, the power is the creative nature of Jesus
Christ and is represented by one of His innate attributes of omnipotence - all powerful.
"Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!" Revelation 19:6b (NKJV).
Where in the Scripture is it stated that Christians have the ability to speak to evil things and they must
stop and flee? I will accept one verse. If that is actually the case, then why is there evil in the world?
Why is Satan still active? There have been so many claims of undiscerning Christians that they can
"bind the devil" that are too numerous to have been counted, yet Satan is not bound by any
words that Christians have said or might say. Even Jesus Christ did not bind the devil and the apostles
made no attempt to do it either. You are presuming that Christians have powers and knowledge to
handle those powers, which they do not. The Scripture says that Christians are to resist the devil by
means of the armor of God which is the Scripture itself. If you believe that you can go on the offensive
with the devil and win, then you have already lost the battle:
"Finally my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole
armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Ephesians
6:10-11 (NKJV)
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7
(NKJV)
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking
whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are
experienced by your brotherhood in the world." 1 Peter 5:8 (NKJV)
POINT 12
The law of Faith.
Where does the Scripture state that there is a Law of Faith in relation to your creative ability?
The law of faith is defined by the apostle Paul:
"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" Romans
3:27 (NKJV)
The Law of Faith is in relation to salvation, not your ability to be a creator.
Your teachers claim that faith is an entity off force, that can be harnessed and used like electricity. It is
claimed to be the power of the universe and is so powerful that God Himself had to use faith in order to
create the universe and man. So, as a Creator, God is subservient to faith and cannot create without it's
use. Kenneth Copeland is currently the most famous proponent of that teaching.
- "You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that
God used when he created the heavens and the earth."
- Kenneth Copeland, 'Inner Image of the Covenant,' side 2.
- "God used words when He created the heaven and the earth....Each time God spoke, He
released His faith -- the creative power to bring His words to pass."
- Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1980), 4.
In Kenneth Copeland's doctrine, faith is greater than God, because without the use of faith, God
has no power to act or create. However, faith is not greater than God and God did not use faith to
create any entity, whether it be this universe or any creature. There is no verse in the entire Bible that
states that God ever used faith in relation to any creative act. I challenge any Word of Faith teacher or
believer to find any verse or passage in the Bible that states that God used faith to create any entity or
that He must or does use faith in any aspect of His existence in relation to His power or the
implementation of His will. God is not subject to faith; God is the source of faith, Romans 12:3,
Ephesians 2:8, and the object of faith, John 14:1, Acts 20:21.. Any claim that God is subject to faith or
that faith has any power or authority over God is false and heretical teaching.
POINT 13
I understand your point about Satan's reign being in the minds of men and women, and I would
agree with you as far as you go, but his reign is not so simple and is much more comprehensive than
that. Satan reigns in numerous realms:
1. Spiritual kingdom - as the leader of one-third of the angelic host who chose to follow him in
opposition to the kingdom of God and His angelic host. There is a continual battle going on in the
heavenly realm between the forces of Satan and the forces of God about which we know absolutely
nothing and over which Christians have no power, Daniel 10:13-14, with a final battle that moves from
that realm to earth during the tribulation. Revelation 12:4.
2. Physical kingdom - the ruler of this world, John 12:31; 14:30.
3. Philosophical kingdom - the god of this age, originator of the world system including economics,
philosophy, education and false religion, 2 Corinthians 4:4.
4. Personal kingdom - ruler over death and the souls of the unregenerate, Hebrews 2:14, subject to the
sanctions imposed by God, Job 1:11-12; 2:6.
Be very careful that you do not underestimate the power of Satan and his angels, and at the same time
overestimate the power that you might believe you have over them. Even the angels of God cannot
oppose Satan without the power of God and even require the intervention of the archangel of God in
order to carry out their missions without opposition, Daniel 10:13.
POINT 14
I understand why you adopt this particular position, because it clearly represents how you view the
authority that you presume to have as a god. However, you are attempting to preempt the authority of
God to deal with His creation as He sees fit. In order to support your position, you propose that the
plans of God can only be "good" by your definition, but not by His. When you claim that
you know assuredly that "bad" things cannot have their origin with God, then you apply
your own thoughts and theology that are denied by the Scripture itself. There is suffering, persecution
and illness that will not be eliminated or mediated simply because a person is a
Christian.
1. There is some suffering because of the sovereign will and action of God, just as
everything that happens in this world is a result of the sovereign, determined plan of God, to the end
that His purpose will be accomplished and not our own personal wants and desires.
"As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked
Him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was
neither that this man sinned nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in
him,'" John 9:1-3.
"The Lord said to him, 'Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing
or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'" Exodus 4:11
2. Some suffering is a result of the direct act of Satan under the authority of God.
"Then the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not
put forth your hand on him.' So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord," Job
1:12.
"So the Lord said to Satan, 'Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.' Then Satan went out
from the presence of the Lord and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of
his head," Job 2:6-7.
3. Some suffering and death is a result of the chastening of God, such as the situation in the
Corinthian church, because the Lord's Supper has been observed in an unworthy manner, when
Christians have not considered their sin and repented.
"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (are
dead)," 1 Corinthians 11:30.
The Corinthian church was the example, because they came to their love feasts, which concluded with
the Lord's Supper being celebrated, and the event became a debauched monstrosity, even to the point
of many becoming drunk, cf. 1 Corinthians 11:17-22, 33-34.
4. There is suffering and death, because Christians are not immune from the effects of the fallen creation
in which they live.
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the
world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world," John 16:33.
". . . [W]e ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance
and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication
of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which
indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from
heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire . . ," 2 Thessalonians 14-7.
If healing, prosperity and safety are part of the gifts to every believer, then there
must be some Christian, somewhere in the world, who has appropriated those gifts in their life, who is
healthy, rich, safe, has never died and is centuries old, because death itself is a product of disease. I
have been waiting to meet that person, but they seem to be very reclusive, or else no Christian has ever
been able to claim those gifts that are said to be promised but, in reality, are never granted. Even the
apostles could not accomplish that feat.
Persecution will accompany belief:
John 16:33, Luke 21:12, John 15:20-21.
Believers are persecuted in place of Jesus Christ
Zechariah 2:8, Acts 9:4-5, Romans 8:36
Persecution for the sake of Christ is blessed
Matthew 5:10, Luke 6:22-23
Believers suffer for the sake of God
Jeremiah 15:15
All that live Godly in Christ will suffer
2 Timothy 3:12
Preachers of truth will be persecuted
Galatians 5:11
Persecution can and will result in death (Saul)
Acts 2:24
Persecution does not separate from Jesus Christ
Romans 8:35, 8:38-39
Christians are not immune to suffering:
Christians suffer because they are called for that purpose, 1 Peter 2:21.
Christians suffer for doing right, because it may be God's will, 1 Peter 3:17.
Christians suffer because it is the will of God, 1 Peter 4:19.
Christians suffer for the name of Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:22; Mark 13:13; Acts 5:41.
Christians suffer because they suffer for Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 1:6.
Christians suffer because it has been granted by God to suffer for Jesus Christ, Philippians 1:29.
Christians suffer for the sake of Christ and are blessed, Luke 6:22-23.
Christians suffer so that they may glorify God, 1 Peter 4:16.
Christians suffer because they are children of God and heirs with Jesus Christ so that they "may
also be glorified with Him," Romans 8:17.
Christians suffer for the sake of the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:8.
Christians suffer as a representative of Jesus Christ, Luke 21:17, John 15:18-22.
Christians suffer because they follow Jesus Christ, Luke 21:12
Christians suffer because it leads to opportunities to testify, Luke 21:13.
Christians suffer because they represent righteousness, 1 John 3:11-13.
Christians suffer because they do not belong to this world, John 15:19; 17:14-16.
Christians suffer because they desire to live godly lives, 2 Timothy 3:12, Hebrews 11:25.
Christians suffer so they will depend on the grace of the Lord, 2 Corinthians 12:9.
Christians suffer so that they will not exalt themselves, 2 Corinthians 12:7.
Christians suffer so that they may comfort others when they are afflicted, 2 Corinthians 1:4.
Christians suffer so that they may testify of the comfort that God gives, 2 Corinthians 1:4.
Christians suffer so that they may know God, Job 42:1-8.
Christians suffer so that the words God speaks may be found to be true, Job 1:22.
Christians suffer in order to learn how to live the Christian life, Philippians 4:12.
Christians suffer so that they will not be ashamed of the gospel of Christ, 2 Timothy 1:8-12.
Christians suffer so that the gospel may be preached, 2 Timothy 3:8-10.
Christians suffer on behalf of others, Ephesians 3:13.
Christians suffer because they are not exempt from the fallen creation, John 16:33.
Christians suffer in order to gain perseverance, Romans 5:3.
Christians suffer as a result of sin, Acts 5:1-10.
Christians suffer for abusing the Lord's supper, 1 Corinthians 11:30.
Is it right that Jesus Christ would suffer for all Christians but they decide they will not suffer for Him?
It would be presumptuous to state that the reason Christians are in a place of suffering, is
because they do not express qualifying faith or because of sin in their lives or both. That is knowledge
that cannot be known and an assumption of convenience, designed to absolve those who claim healing
powers of their responsibility by their failure to perform those miracles in the same manner as they were
accomplished by Jesus Christ and the apostles, and to explain why, in the real world, all Christians are
not healthy, wealthy and safe. It is perfectly acceptable to pray to God in order to request the things
that we all believe are appropriate in our lives, but it must also be recognized that we are not sovereign
and God is - that is why He is God and we are not, and is why we must always defer to His will, in
spite of the fact that many of your teachers claim that we should not. You seem to adopt Kenneth
Hagin's unbiblical statements on the subject:
- "Because we didn't understand what Jesus said, and because we've been religiously
brainwashed instead of New Testament-taught, we watered down the promises of God and tacked on
something that Jesus didn't say, and added on something else to it: "Well, He will all right if it's
His will, but it might not be His will, " people have said. And yet, you don't find that kind of talk in
the New Testament,"
- Kenneth Hagin, How Jesus Obtained His Name, Tulsa: Rhema, cassette tape #44H01.
- "It is unscriptural to pray, 'If it is the will of God.' When you put an 'if in your prayer, you
are praying in doubt,"
- Kenneth Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, Tulsa: Faith Library, 1983, p. 10.
"This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask
anything according to His will, He hears us. And we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we
know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him,"
1 John 5:14-15.
The words of Jesus Christ
Matthew 6: 10, Matthew 7-21, Matthew 12:50, Matthew 18:14, Matthew 26:39, 42, 44, Mark 3:35,
Mark 14-36, 39, Luke 22:42, John 4:34, John 5:30, John 6:38-40.
The words of Luke:
Acts 22:14.
The words of the apostle John
John 1:13, 1 John 2:17
The words of the apostle Peter
1 Peter 2:15, 1 Peter 3:17, 1 Peter 4:2, 19
The words of the apostle Paul
Acts 18:21; Romans 1:10; Romans 12:2; Romans 15:32; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 1 Corinthians 4:19; 2
Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 8:5; Galatians 1:4; Ephesians 1:1, 5, 9, 11; Ephesians 5-17; Ephesians
6:6; Philippians 2:13; Colossians 1:1, 9; Colossians 4:12; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 1 Thessalonians 5:18;
2 Timothy 1:1.
The words of Ananias
Acts 22:14
The words of the writer of Hebrews
Hebrews 10:36
It is our human depravity that asserts that our will should be God's will, but just the opposite is
true, because God's will should be our will. Even Job realized the truth of this issue:
"But he said to her, 'You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept
good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?' In all this Job did not sin with his lips." Job
2:10 (NKJV)
I ask the same question in numerous articles on the website: Who is the authority in the matter, your
teachers or the Scripture?
I don't think that I have ever said that it is wrong for ministers to sell tapes, CD's or books. So I don't
understand that aspect of your criticism. As I have indicated to others who have presented the almost
identical arguments as you, a free sermon or shelves full of books, tapes and CD's of false teaching are
no benefit and no bargain.
#2
Those who warn us against the dangers of cults are often more dangerous than the cults they warn us
against.
United States
[38-Vol 1]
#3
BIBLE
It is complete and infallible in the original languages
So, the volume I have in English, where Jesus the Christ says "Thy Word is Truth", is not
Truth?
He said I must live "BY EVERY WORD THE PROCEEDS FROM GOD'S MOUTH".
Your statement is ERROR, GOD ALMIGHTY PROMISED ME EVERY WORD, or He would not
have told me to LIVE BY EVERY WORD!
Is your god to WEAK to preserve EVERY WORD unto this day?
I rejoice that MY GOD is ALMIGHTY, and PRESERVED HIS TRUTH FOR ME!
MEN LIE, GOD CANNOT!
A WISE man said "DO NOT believe what men say about the WORD, but DO believe what the
WORD says about men"!
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written
Thus you are LIARS, your own words prove you to be liars.
In the service of the TRUTH, the LIVING WORD, JESUS CHRIST,
United States
[41-Vol 1]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You are trying to make an argument against the wrong point. I have never said that the words of God
are not truth. What I said was, Mark 16:9-20 was not written by Mark, so the passage cannot be
presumed to be Scripture.
When Jesus said, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth
of God,'" He was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3. When Deuteronomy was penned, the entire Scripture was
not yet written. Probably only the Pentateuch existed, while the rest of the Old Testament had not
occurred. In that case, only part of the words from the mouth of God had been recorded, so believers
in that time did not have the words that would later be recorded and would be spoken to future
generations, and did not have the words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament like you have now. God
did not promise you that you have in your Bible every word spoken by God, or even every word
spoken by Jesus Christ. That is not even the issue in relation to Mark 16.
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose
that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written."
John 21:25
"Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in he presence of the disciples, which are not written
in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
John 20:30-31
The Bible contains everything necessary for salvation and the Christian life, even if the book of Mark
did not exist. Do you think that the Bible always existed in the form in which you find it today? The
book of Revelation was not completed by the apostle John until approximately 96 A.D., which is about
sixty years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The rest of the New Testament books were written at
intervals between those two events and at no time during that period were all the books brought
together and codified, along with the Old Testament, into a unified Scriptural volume.
I think that after almost two-thousand years, it is remarkable that there are as few textual problems in
the New Testament as have been identified, and the same goes for the Old Testament as well. Another
interpolation is the passage in John 7:53 - 8:11, which is the account of the woman taken in
adultery, and has the same problem as Mark 16:9-20. There is also 1 John 5:7-8 which expresses very
distinct Trinitarian statement, but is also a later addition not original to the apostle John.
I don't find the additions in John and 1 John to be as problematic as those found in Mark 16:9-20,
because those passages do not make claims that render other Scriptural passages in error, but the
claims made in Mark 16:9-20 do not conform to the teachings in the other portions of Scripture. In
particular, Mark 16:17-18 states that ALL believers would have certain abilities:
1. "... they will take up serpents. . ." - (The implication being that they will not be harmed.)
2. "... if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them ..."
3. "... they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
There are no disclaimers in the two verses, which disqualify certain believers from asserting those
abilities such as a lack of faith, failure to speak in a positive manner or failure to tithe or give their time
or money to the work of ministry.
Jesus Christ gave authority over demons and the ability to heal, (Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6, 10-11), to
the twelve disciples (including Judas Iscariot), and then He did the same with the seventy, including the
ability to walk on serpents and scorpions (which could also have been demonic spirits rather than actual
animal creatures), and authority "over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you,"(Luke
10:1-20). The apostle Paul was immune to snake venom, Acts 28:3-6.
Jesus Christ granted those specific gifts to specific people and not to all of His disciples in general,
because there were more than the twelve and the seventy who were His followers, Acts 1:15. There
are others in the early church who had the ability to heal: Stephen (Acts 6:8), Philip (Acts 8:7) and
Barnabas (Acts 15:12). The apostles, although they had great and powerful gifts, did not possess those
gifts in their fullness as time progressed. All of the apostles were eventually martyred, except for John,
so they did not have authority over everything that would harm them. Even the healing power expressed
by the apostle Paul was limited, since he did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27),
Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), and Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23). The apostle Paul specifically teaches that
not all Christians have all of the gifts, including the ability to heal (1 Corinthians 12:27-31).
The fact that the verses in Mark do not belong there and that some verses have been lost does not
preclude the possibility that the content of those verses was recorded in the other gospels, so in the
absence of knowing what the missing verses said, you should not protest too vigorously by asserting
that I am claiming that God has been unable to protect His Word or that you are being denied some
major information necessary for living the Christian life. The reality is, that Mark 16:17-18 presents
some very erroneous information that will cause great frustration and/or illness and death to the believer
who acts on what the verses say.
#4
Do not Jugde them for yours have not been published yet.
United States
[47-Vol 1]
#5
To whom it may concern:
I looked up on the internet to do some information on Oral Roberts life and ministry.
When I found this page I was discusted. Growing up as a pastors daughter of course
I had some people talk bad about my parents and it would hurt me bad. When you
wrote this you did not think about Roberts family and how that would effect them by
writting this stuff. Yeah even if it is true you do not have to down him like you did. That is horrible.
Oral Roberts is not God nor has he ever said to be so then that makes him human. He is not perfect. I
am sure he has made mistakes in his life and in his ministry but for this page to make him look like this
horrible person is wrong. I hop0e that you think about this and realize that what you are writting hurts
people. I take it that this is a Christian page for people to get free bibles and stuff but when christians
and putting down other christians than who would want to even want to get involved with Christianity
anyways. Just think about that please.
United States
[48-Vol 1]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
If I have spoken "bad" about Oral Roberts, then it must be that I have spoken some untruth. If that is
the case, then you are free to present the actual facts as a correction and I will be happy to consider
your response.
I have never said that Oral Roberts claimed to be God, although he claims to be a "little God" like his
friend Kenneth Copeland, by which they claim equality with Jesus Christ. I have never said that Oral
Roberts should be perfect or that he should not make legitimate mistakes. What Oral Roberts has done
is something quite different than revealing the normal foibles of human beings. He has deliberately made
claims that God has told him specific things that He has not.
I would say that Oral Roberts' family supports him fully in his endeavors, including his son Richard
Roberts who has actively participated in the "revelations" that Oral Roberts has claimed and wrote
letters begging followers to send in their money when Oral Roberts claimed that God was going to kill
him if he didn't raise $8 million.
Oral Roberts has no concern for you or your family when he claims to receive revelations from God
instructing him to beg money from you, when he has received no such revelation. I don't really
understand the rationale behind your last statement, because who would want to get involved with a
leader who claims to receive revelations from God that he has not. Apparently many people choose
that avenue.
#6
You either don't read the Bible much, or you don't believe it much. I can't figure you out. People like
you have a bad habit of taking ministers' words out of context almost as much as some take the Bible
out of context.Get a real job, stop trying to find fault with everyone who is actually helping the body of
Christ, and develop a little faith in the Word you claim to know so much about.
United States
[56-Vol 2]
#7
As a Freewill Baptist minister I wish to address the article on Arminian
Theology.It pains me to see the Body of Christ divided over such matters,
the one main point of doctrine that we can agree on is that this is a lost
and dying world in need of a Saviour.If we keep our eyes on Christ all else will pale in the light of the
truth.
United States
[81-Vol 2]
#8
The bible does not teach their are no longer any prophets. If there are no prophets, then there are no
preachers, teachers, or evangelists. You need to get your scriptures correct.
United States
[84-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I am not speaking about prophets in the context of those who proclaim and teach the message
of the Scripture, who are defined as "forth tellers". I am referring to those who claim the gift of
prophecy by which they claim to receive additional information from God, Jesus Christ, the
Holy Spirit or angels which is not part of the biblical record. The numbers of those people who
claim that ability are legion, but taken together, their supposed revelations are a contradictory mass
of confusion, which is the logical end of a belief in continuing direct revelation.
The test of a prophet is specified by God Himself in, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 and Deuteronomy 13:1-3.
If you have not applied God's standard to your prophets, then you are part of the problem.
#9
You really dont seem to under stand how healings take place it is there for you and you have to believe
and recieve you also have to work your faith also I know this for a fact you speak Godsa word believe
and then you recieve there are principles that you have to do God healed me from acid reflux after 2
years of trying every thing then I stood on Gods word and spoke Gods word and in 2 days I was
healed and about numners being called out any one can be healed if you have a cproblem it doesnt
mean that its just for 16 it just means that if you believe it you can be healed Jesus already did every
thing that we need its left up to us to recieve it and you have to use your faith there is a part you have
in it also I know this is true because not just hear sat I am a living testamony and people like you cant
take that away I know that they are false doctrine out there but God will manifest Himself in you and
you will know that God is real and thatHe will show you He is real It just really botherts me wh
[rest of messge lost during transmission].
[86-Vol 2]
#10A
Be careful what you say about your brothers and sisters in Christ. You and I may not like everything
Richard Roberts says, but this I know, be very careful that you do not sit in the seat of scoffers, and
do not judge another man's servant or you will find the Lord bringing you low and showing you no
mercy.
PSALM 1:1-2
1 How blessed is the man who does R1 not walk in the counsel R2 of the wicked, Nor stand in the
path
of sinners, Nor sitin the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
JAMES 2:12-13
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be
MERCILESS to one who has shown no mercy; MERCY triumphs over judgment.
JAMES 3:5-12
5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest
is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set
among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is
set on fire by hell. 7 For every species beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed
and has been tamed by the human race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full
of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been
made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren,
these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh
and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt
water produce fresh.
Blessings in Yeshua,
United States
[87-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Before you attempt to defend Richard Roberts, you need to deal with the judgments that he has
pronounced which are much more serious than anything I have stated in relation to his claims and
teachings. I suggest you read the Mail Call communication and my reply at:
Richard Roberts #53
#10B
Brother Gary,
My point to you and for you, is that the LORD will deal with His servants AND Mr. Roberts
judgements that he has pronounced. Should we return evil for evil? no, but as
James the Righteous, brother of Jesus states:
Book of James 2:8-13
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE
YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are
committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole
law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT
COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT
MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you
have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those
who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be MERCILESS to one who has
shown no mercy; MERCY triumphs over judgment.
Blessings,
United States
[89-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I am not quite sure what you are attempting to defend. If you claim that love is to remain silent while
fellow Christians are deceived by false teachers, false prophets and immoral leaders, then that is a very
unusual definition of love. Those particular teachers, prophets and leaders are perfectly happy to have
the church adopt that approach, since they can operate without any concern that they will ever be
called to accountability or encounter any opposition.
It is very popular to adopt the position that God will remove all of the leaders who do not meet His
standards, so it is presumed that those who have not died in their pulpits must be acceptable to God,
therefore they do not merit a critical analysis of their doctrines or their conduct. That is certainly not a
biblical position, because that is not a claim made by God or Jesus Christ. If that were actually the case,
then there would be no false religious systems in the world, and the warning by Jesus Christ was
pointless hyperbole, Matthew 24:23-28.
See also: 2 Peter 2:1-22; 3:1-7, Jude 3-19.
One of the major criticisms and questions from the secular press in relation to the Jim Bakker, Jimmy
Swaggart and Ted Haggard moral scandals was, Why don't Christians police their own leaders? You
have presented one of the reasons, by redefining the nature of love as being acceptance and sanction
without discernment or consequences. That is not a proper application of love, especially in relation to
those who are followers of the leaders who are the problem. I find it interesting that you consider the
exposure of false doctrine and improper conduct to be evil.
The standards for leadership in the church are presented in 1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-16. Those
standards were not placed in the Scripture so God would have a reference reminder when He decided
to act against false leaders; they are there for the church and it is expected that those standards will be
upheld by members and elders. Unfortunately, that is not the norm.
There are a number of examples in the Scripture where individuals were rebuked, especially leaders,
and where doctrines and teachings were not accepted without question. The following represent those
issues:
Genesis 20:1-18
Abimelech, the pagan king of Gerar rebuked Abraham for his lies.
Genesis 26
Abimelech, another pagan king of Gerar and the Philistines rebuked Isaac for his lies.
Numbers 22:21-35
Balaam was rebuked by an ass and an angel.
2 Samuel 12:1-15
Nathan rebuked David for his sin with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah.
Matthew 23:13-36
The eight woes publicly pronounced against the Pharisees by Jesus Christ.
Luke 11:37-45
The public rebuke of the Pharisees by Jesus Christ.
Luke 11:46-52
The public rebuke of the Mosaic Law experts by Jesus Christ.
Acts 17:11
The Bereans scrutinized the teachings of the apostle Paul.
1 Corinthians 5
1 "It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not
exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 "You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed
would be removed from your midst.
3 "For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so
committed this, as though I were present.
4 "In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of
our Lord Jesus,
5 "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be
saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 "Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of
dough?
7 "Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For
Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 "Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and
wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 "I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or
with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person,
or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a
one.
12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the
church?
13 "But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among
yourselves.
Galatians 2:11-21
Paul rebuked Peter publicly and included a rebuke of Barnabus in his letter.
Philippians 4:2-3
Euodia and Syntyche were rebuked for their disunity.
1 Timothy 1:20
Hymenaeus and Alexander were delivered to Satan because of blasphemy.
2 Timothy 1:15
Phygelus and Hermogenes are named as persons who turned away from the apostle Paul.
2 Timothy 2:17
Hymenaeus and Philetus were noted for their false doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:10
Demas is named as a lover of the world and deserted the apostle Paul.
3 John 9-10
Diotrephes was rebuked for speaking nonsense against the apostle John, refusing to speak to John and
removing the real brethren from the church.
All of the above examples are from the Scripture and have remained there as examples from which
Christians should learn about their responsibility in relation to leaders and in relation to applying the
standards of the Scripture.
If you wish to use a Scripture to present your case, then James 2:8-13 is probably not the best passage
to use, because, like you have done with the definition of love, you must change the definitions of
judgment and mercy to reflect what they do not mean in the verses. Judgment and mercy, in context as
referenced by James, have nothing to do with a comparison of the doctrines and conduct of teachers to
that found in the Scripture.
The subject of James chapter 2 and the application of judgment and mercy is defined in verses 2 and 3,
and concerns the use of favoritism in the church. That favoritism entailed preferential treatment for those
who were rich and a disenfranchisement of those who were poor by which the gospel was being denied
to them. The poor were being judged as inferior and unworthy and thus the gospel
message, by which the mercy of God is expressed, was being denied to them. In
addition, the resources of the rich which cold have been used to help the poor were not being used in
that manner, so the members of the church revealed that they did not love their neighbors as
themselves. They only loved the rich for the status and benefits that they might receive from them. If
you will go back and read the entire chapter, you will see what is being discussed and why you cannot
take a passage of Scripture that is dealing with one subject, and then take that same Scripture and
claim that it applies to another subject that is not defined within the passage.
If the Lord is going to deal with his servants so that I don't have to be concerned, then He is quite
capable of dealing with me so that you do not have to be concerned. As I have responded to many
others who have attempted to present arguments similar to yours, If criticism is forbidden to me, then it
is also forbidden to you. I have noted a response to many of your concerns in a previous article on the
website:
"Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
#11
We are [acquainted] with GTA family even still after his unfortunate
and fixed (according to resources) death. Look upon you and see the revelations that is coming upon
us, even with the great possibility of Obama coming ahead! You know nothing about the dimensions of
God! But however, they also, like ourselves defied God, because of possible infractions to the Law!
Does a Prophet Sin? Does any man other than than the Messiah sin? So what authority governs who
in such matters of being with women, or is it the image of man that governs right for the children to
understand? Let God do His Job and do not make governed remarks about a man who may have well
attempted to save your life through understand of God when you dwell well upon your lavish hosts. Be
mindful, GTA is like John the Baptist, more dangerous dead than alive, I assure you of that. O btw, no
the armstrongs are not aware of this message and they may feel more at Peace if they did!
But, in love and spirit, be not glued to what is [rest of article lost during transmissin].
United States
[88-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE the article:
Garner Ted Armstrong
#12A
Gary: Regarding the doctrine of inclusion of Carlton Pearson. The Scripture fully and without
reservation prove this doctrine to be correct. I came to this understanding not by someone else's
writings or theories, but by careful study of the Scripture. I was not aware of Carlton Pearson or
anyone else for that matter who understood this.
I started my study of Scripture in 1988 going to different Baptist churches, then studying Luther and his
writings. Luther of any Christian came close to truth, but did not understand the fullness of the gospel.
Salvation is not about anything that involves man, but is all of God.
Salvation is mine says the Lord.
God was never angry at man for supposed sin, this was all conjured up in the mind of Adam not God.
God asked Adam in the garden. Who told you that you were naked? God never ever ever accused
man of sin. This is made up in the mind of man.
The grave and catastrophic error of the so called Christian church is as follows:
1. They blatanly refuse to heed the plain instruction of the Apostle Paul in the interpretation of Scripture.
1 Corinthians 2:10 and following clearly and plainly tell us that Scripture is to be interpreted
SPIRITUALLY. What do the devils tell us? They tell us to interpret them literally; big, big mistake they
outright deny this very clear and plain Scripture and fall headlong into monumental, grievous error. This
destroys any chance of correctly interpreting Scripture. Why would God give any knowledge to anyone
who so blatanly disobeyes these foundational instructions. Therefore God has sent a delusion to those
who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL.
2. The churches take one or two verses out ot context and form complete denominations out of them.
Hence the Baptists, Jehovah Witnesses, Morons,Pentecostals etc, etc, ad infinitum.
3. They have not heeded the warnings of Jesus, that Satan would be loosed where he and his devils
operate in every pulpit of every church in this planet. Truth has completely been obliterated by you so
called theologians, pastors, teachers, so called leaders. This is who God is angry with. Did he not show
us the church through his examples of the pharissees? All of Scripture was given as an example to the
New Testament church. The old testament is not about Israel the physical. It is about the spiritual Israel.
We of the new testament church are the real jews as Romans so clearly teaches.
4. Read Isaah carefully and Jeremiah, and Ezekiel and there you will see a clear picture of the
HARLOT. The fools take these books and try and fit them in to what is going on in the world, when
God is talking about the church. Do we not read the same language in Jeremiah as in Revelation? This
should give us a huge clue, but oh no we go off and try and match it to our newspapers. WHAT
FOOLISHNESS!
5. God repeats himself over and over and over in the Scriptures. You will be without excuse when you
have to answer to God for those things that you have taught and deceived the flock.
6. You have followed a man named Calvin who was an outright murderer, who had people executed
for their supposed heresies. Is this what Christ would have done?
7. Calvin not taking into account all of Scripture, takes a few verses out of Romans and Ephesians out
of context and comes up with the most blasphemous doctrines ever to be passed down to this very day.
8. When you look at all of the teaching of Scripture there is abundant overwhelming evidence of the
doctrine of the SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND.
9. But you having judged yourselves unworthy, you are sows that were WASHED, but you have gone
back to your mire and vomit.
10. Those verses in Peter tells us very clearly we all come into this world washed by the blood of
Christ, but you have trampled under foot the Son of God. You have defiled your garments.
11. Let me tell you about the doctrine of election. MANY ARE CALLED, FEW ARE CHOSEN.
Here is your doctrine of election. God again here is referring to those of us who have been called to
feast on the Word of God. Out of the called he chooses few. Why? They had the abundant witness
before their very eyes, but like the pharoh did not want to see. God all day long calls out to his bride,
but she refuses to SEE.
12. You have denied Christ, because you say He is NOT THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. The
samaritans, Peter, Paul, John, all testify that He is the Savior of the WORLD.
13. You have denied Christ when you say that sin is still in the world, when according to the New
Testament and Old, sin is done away with. God does not look at or see sin. What did Christ die for?
According to you and your foolish followers: He died for nothing, accomplished nothing. SIN, SIN,
SIN, YOU ARE WORKERS OF INIQUITY.
14. The church and its stupidity mock Christ every time they exalt the ten commandments, when Christ
died to take the law away, even Luther understood this partly. You are worshiping the tables made of
stone. You are not worshiping Christ.
15. This world has been in error since pentecost, and the Scriptures rightly prophesied this very thing
would happen. TIME TO WAKE UP, for the time is short.
United States
[90-Vol 2]
#12B
Gary: You are following men, that is obvious. Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John MacCarthur, and your
rival Armenius do not and did not understand the gospel. You with the rest of the so called Christian
church have fallen headlong into serious fatal error.
The abomination of desolation is you and all these others, you have made the truth desolate.
The Scriptures rightly describe you as workers of iniquity. How so you say?
In your foolish unbelief and rejection of the simplicity of the gospel you are in danger of eternal
damnation. Let us look at a few simple Scriptures:
1. Mathew 12:31 here Jesus sums up all of Scripture in his first statement, the simplicity of the gospel is
laid out. ALL manner of SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN UNTO MEN. Here
Jesus has no exclusions unto men means all of humanity, and ALL SIN means ALL SIN. But the
church being more stubborn than Pharaoh denies and rejects this statement outright. First; like you say
only the elect have their sin taken away, and then you deny it for the elect also, because you say we still
sin. What a slap in the face of Christ. Does ALL mean ALL? Not to you and all of Babylon.
2. John 1:29 Here is the statement of faith of John the Baptist as so witnessed by the apostle John.
Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. I guess this means nothing to you, or
you will lead us into the Greek or whatever and tell us this verse does not really mean what it says.
Pretty bold, pretty plain I would say!
3. John 4:42 Here we have many more witnesseses the Samaritans, not theologians, not pastors, but
what the church considers unclean. This is a statement of faith my friend. Now we believe, not because
of thy saying; for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed, the SAVIOUR OF THE
WORLD. Is this your statement of faith? No yours is God is the Saviour of us the elect. What
arrogance and foolish pride! Your Jesus could not even save the world, or take away sin.
4. John 9:41 If ye were blind, ye should have NO SIN; but now ye say, WE SEE; therefore your SIN
REMAINETH. EVEN THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH HAVE THEIR SINS
REMOVED. What more can we say here? This is very clear. I am sure you will come up with
something right. But look what Jesus says those who say they see there sin will remain. If this is not our
apostate church then please tell me WHO?
5. If this was not plain enough here is another: John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they
had not had sin:BUT NOW they have no cloke for their SIN. Here you have Jesus telling us that
anyone who does not even hear the gospel has NO SIN, but this verse throws your once saved always
saved false gospel down the drain. Look what Jesus has done we have a cloke we are born with the
cloke. ALL OF HUMANITY IS BORN WITH THE CLOKE. But here Jesus is telling us we can
have our cloke removed. How? By committing the unpardonable sin, speaking (teaching against the
gospel) Remember there is only one sin that has the but attached to it. This sin is not physical murder,
physical adultery, etc,etc.
6. Acts 10:28 God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. This is a
statement of faith of the apostle Peter witnessed by the writer of the book of Acts. We cannot call any
man unclean. Once you say you are SAVED AND SOMEONE ELSE IS NOT, after looking at the
Word of God, you are now in danger of having your robe removed, your name blotted out. DOES
THIS MAKE SENSE? I struggled my entire time I was in the churches trying to make sense of what
they were coming up with. Baptist, reformed, pentecostals,mormons, jehovah witnesses, seventh day,
church of christ,lutherans, presbytarians, on and on ad infinitum, they are all the same. ALL DENYING
AND REJECTING THE WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS. The leaders are workers of
iniquity. Working up sin, plowing it up, over and over, and over.
7. Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to FINISH THE
TRANSGRESSION, AND TO MAKE AN END OF SINS, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS. This was a prophesy of the cross. Jesus said on
the cross IT IS FINISHED. Was it finished? Not according to the learned church and it's many fine
theologians. THEY DENY AND REJECT THIS EVERY TIME THEY OPEN THEIR
BLASPHEMOUS MOUTHS, OR WRITE ANOTHER OF THEIR FINE TREATESIES OR
BOOKS. Gary do you have the message yet? The true believer must believe the whole world is saved.
It does not need to get saved as the Armenians would tell us.
8. The test of true believers comes in 1 John 3:9 whosever is born of God doth not sin, and cannot sin.
John here is teaching us that once someone sees the gospel in the Word of God he UNDERSTANDS,
REMEMBER PROVERBS, THE WORDS OF JESUS. IT IS ALL ABOUT UNDERSTANDING.
Understanding What? That sin is done away. We must believe God and His word. We must not look at
ourselves or the world. Paul says He judges no man according to the flesh.
God through Christ sees a sinless world. We must have the mind of Christ and therefore we see no sin
in us or the world. Not because of what the world is doing, BUT WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE 2000
YEARS AGO.
9. This probably is not enough evidence for you, so we will continue; Hebrews 9:26 but NOW once in
the end of the world hath he appeared to PUT AWAY SIN by the sacrifice of himself. Now are you
going to tell me that sin is still here. I dare you deny this statement; a most powerful statement of the
gospel.
This is enough for now. I need to hear from you, or else I will dust off my feet and move on.
United States
[98-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
When you begin your theological system with a wrong premise, then everything that followers will
become progressively more erroneous. Such is your claim that, "God was never angry at man for
supposed sin, this was all conjured up in the mind of Adam not God."
In order to support that assertion:
You must deny the nature of the prohibition.
The difference between obedience and disobedience was the difference between life and death,
". . . but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you
eat from it you will surely die." Genesis 2:17 (NAS).
You must deny the reality of the curses pronounced -
The curse on the serpent, 3:14-15.
The curse on the woman, 3:16
The curse on Adam, 3:17-19
The curse on the earth, 3:17-18
The curse on the animal world, 3:14
The curse on Adam and Eve - death, 3:19
The curse on Adam and Eve - expulsion, 3:22-24
If God gave punishment for "supposed sin" that was not actual sin that did not really
happen, then God is a cruel ogre and task master who metes out punishment without cause and without
remorse.
You must deny the action of God.
"The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."
Genesis 3:21 (NAS).
If Adam only imagined that he was naked, then Eve must have participated in the same fanciful dream
which resulted in their fabrication of clothing from leaves, 3:7. But you must explain why, if they only
imagined their nakedness, why God killed an animal a made clothes from the skin.
You must deny the entire third chapter of Genesis in order to make your theory plausible.
You must deny the words of the apostle Paul:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death
spread to all men, because all sinned -"
Romans 5:12 (NAS)
Rather than adopt a version that you have conjured in your mind, I will remain with the Scripture.
#12C
Gary: I have written to you before, but obviously you don't care about truth. I am not a follower of
Carlton Pearson, nor have I ever been. But Carlton is on his way to truth according to Scripture not
apostles of Satan like Oswold Chambers or the others you mentioned. Who cares what they think or
profess. Let us look at Scripture and only Scripture.
You are following that devil Calvin. The baptists are following that devil Armenius. The truth has eluded
all of you, and God has sent you a strong delusion. You are all workers of iniquity. How so? Because
you have missed the gospel by a trillion miles, that if you are not careful will put you into outer darkness.
I will lay it out for you with Scripture.
1. ROMANS 6:11 says very clearly that we are to reckon ourselves indeed dead to sin. Sin is a dead
issue in the mind of God the father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore we are to have the
mind of Christ, the mind of Christ sees no sin certainly not with us and most certainly not in others.
Therefore let me make it perfectly clear sin has been a dead issue since the cross.
2. Hebrews 10:26 remember this scary verse which nobody seems to quite understand. That if we sin
wilfully after you have received the truth; of how much sorer punishment is for that person. STUDY UP
TO VERSE 29. You and the whole supposed church are treading underfoot the Son of God, and have
made his death on the cross null and void
3.Hebrews 9:26 Says that NOW He has appeared to put away sin. Is sin put away? Hell no; that is all
the churches talk about is SIN, SIN, SIN when sin has been put away. This makes you the workers of
iniquity. You are working it up. Isaiah says you are working it up like a plow that brings up buried dirt.
Sin was buried with Christ. Christ has now appeared without sin, but you and your churches keep
bringing it up.
4. 1 John 3:9 says that whosoever is born of God does not sin and cannot sin. Anyone who
understands the heart and soul of the gospel knows that this important verse is a test to see who
UNDERSTANDS what the gospel is. I always agonized over this verse, because it is very clear that
this is not less sin, or minor sins, or not a habit of sin. It is very clear; does not, and cannot two very
emphatic terms. The next verse 10 tells us that this is how you test to see who is understanding the
gospel. IT IS ALL ABOUT UNDERSTANDING. Read the book of PROVERBS.
5. 1 John 3:4 clearly tells us what sin is. IT IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.
6. Romans 4:15 says the LAW worketh wrath; where there is NO LAW THERE IS NO
TRANSGRESSION. If you miss the simplicity of this you will be weeping and gnashing. The law has
been taken away. How many verses do you want me to quote from the New Testament. Colossians
2:14, Ephesians 2:15, almost the entire book of Galatians, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 spells it out so clear
you have to be a devil not to see this.
7: If the law and sin were done away then no one has sin other than those who would come against
Mathew 12:31 Jesus said it all here ALL MANNER OF SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE
FORGIVEN UNTO MEN. Not some men or the elected men it is unto all mankind, BUT YOU
GARY HAND ARE COMMITING THE UNPARDONABLE SIN BY SPEAKING AGAINST
THIS VERY SIMPLE STATEMENT OF Jesus.
8. 1 timothy 4:10 says it all and Paul makes a summary statement in verse 11 these things command
and teach. You see Gary God is the Savior of ALL men. We all come into this world washed by the
blood of the Lamb. The only people that will deserve punishment are those who were called to the
supper to feast on the Word of God, and have trampled underfoot the Son of God, and come up with
your own gospels. You will be without excuse. Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler will be in the kindom and
the very ones that were to give us the ministry of reconciliation that Christ was not imputing THEIR
SINS UNTO THEM. Who is THEM? It is the entire world. Does it not say HE is reconciling the
WORLD UNTO HIMSELF? You will be weeping and gnashing
9. You need to heed this carefully, you are in very serious error.
I will now give you the testimonies of the following:
PETER: ACTS 10-28 This is Peters statement of faith. God has shown me that I should call NO
MAN UNCLEAN. What is Peter saying here? In simple terms God has shown me that I cannot call
any man unsaved. What are you and the church doing? According to your gospel only the elect are
saved. What arrogant prideful garbage!
SAMARITANS: John 4:42 and we have heard him for ourselves and know that this is INDEED THE
CHRIST THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. Care to elaborate here.
PAUL: 1 TIMOTHY 4:10, 1 TIMOTHY 2:4, 2 CORINTHIANS 5:14-15 AND MANY MORE.
JOHN: 1 JOHN 4:14 AND WE HAVE SEEN AND DO TESTIFY THAT GOD SENT THE SON
TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
Here you have the testimony of many. Don't you think that if HE was going to save only the elect HE
would have repeated it many times. He did not you have taken a verse out of context in John and
Ephesians and come up with a totally false gospel. You were not watching out. God has set a trap for
the supposed WISE. You and your great library of books of men will all be for not. The truth is in
Scripture not the Library of Calvin or Luther or anyone else.
United States
[141-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
As I mentioned in my reply, when you start your theological system with a wrong premise, then
everything that follows will become progressively more erroneous. Your treatment of the verses in your
note is the best example of that reality in action.
You are attempting to create your own loophole by claiming that the Law has been abolished, so in its
absence you cannot be charged with sin in regards to your conduct. That is a very bad handling of
Romans 4:15. The last time I looked, I counted 9 of the 10 Commandments established in the New
Testament, so unless you are keeping all of them perfectly, then you are sinning on a regular basis.
Those sins can be forgiven, but only if you admit to their existence and that you have committed them.
I think you have a problem with the admission portion of the equation.
The unpardonable sin is in relation to the Holy Spirit and not the statements of Jesus Christ, which He
very plainly explains in Matthew 12:32. Before you speak a condemnation, you should at least get the
foundation of that condemnation right.
#13
Dear Sir, Please Add King David As An Adulterer And murderer to your list.
Even though I agree that some on your list should be punished I find that others on your list are only
human just as you and i.
United States
[92-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
King David has been part of the hall of shame in the Scripture for thousands of years. His story of
infamy is much better told in those pages than I could ever state. If you are attempting to use king David
as an example of failure to justify your own failures and/or those of your teachers, then you have
seriously misread the Scriptures.
#14
God is performing signs and Wonders in Oral Roberts Ministries.My Mum was having severe Stomach
Upset and i sent a prayer request via ORM address.Miraculously God healed her.Psalm 105 verse
15,Touch not my Anointed and do my prophet know harm.Oral and Richard Roberts are Anointed
men of God.
[99-Vol 2]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE the following articles:
"Oral Roberts"
"Oral Roberts - His Propecies"
"Un-Quotable Quotes - Oral Roberts"
"Richard Roberts"
"Un-Quotable Quotes - Richard Roberts"
"Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
#15
Where does it say that prophets do not exist any more there is no such text in the word of God
[104-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You might start with Revelation 22:18-19.
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God
will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of
the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city,
which are written in this book."
Since the Book of Revelation is the last book that was written, then to claim that additional revelation is
being received violates the satement of the apostle John. Those who claim that they are receiving direct
revelations from God are actually claiming to receive additional Scripture that should be added to the
Bible. That is not acceptable. If you would bring together all of the revelations that people have claimed
to receive from God and then organized them by subject, the resulting mass of nonsense would be
ludicrous.
Those who claim a prophetic office by means of being a prophet or apostle, need to be examined as to
their prophetic or apostolic credentials, which none of them can demonstrate.
#16A
Thank you for your response and I am sorry for the inconvenience.
One good thing did come out of this --- Now you know that Jesus was speaking of JEHOVAH when
he speaks of the "Father" or his "Father."
And now it is your turn to "share" the "trurth."
In the beginning there were three separate individuals...
1) JEHOVAH - the only true God - Father.
2) The individual named "Word" - later became known as "Jesus" - Son.
3) The Holy Spirit - Comforter - teacher of the "truth" from the Scriptures.
But of these three separate individuals -- JEHOVAH, alone, is the only true God.
Again, I am not a JEHOVAH Witness but I am a believer in the "truth" from the Scriptures (KJV).
Thanks, again, for your time.
United States
[107-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Just a few questions:
1. How did Jesus Christ come into being; did He always exist or was He created?
2. Who is Jesus Christ according to what you believe?
3. Is Jesus Christ a god, an angel, a human being or what?
4. What is the place of Jesus Christ in the scheme of things?
5. Who is the Holy Spirit?
6. How did the Holy Spirit come into being; did He always exist or was he created?
7. Is the Holy Spirit a god, an angel, or what?
I think you are confused about the name Jesus, which does not mean son and was not the name given
to Him by Mary as a result of the visit by the angel Gabriel, Luke 1:31. Jesus is the Greek form of His
actual Hebrew name which is Jeshua, which is a later form of Jehoshua or Joshua, and means Jehovah
is Salvation or Jehovah saves. The name Jeshua comes from Yehovah, which the King James
translators have rendered as Jehovah.
Jesus Christ bore the covenant name of God, because of the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6:
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders;
and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
The name EL is a descriptor of God, used in Genesis 21:33, "...the everlasting God (El)", and in the
same verse in conjunction with Lord, "...there he called on the name of the Lord (Yehovah)".
Since Jesus Christ is prophesied with the descriptor of the supreme deity, EL, in Isaiah 9:6, indicating
that He is the same as the very God in Genesis 21:33, and furthermore, He is said to be the Eternal
Father, Isaiah 9:6, then you are left with a theology that you have adopted with some very serious
deficiencies.
You equate the "Word" with Jesus Christ, but why do you not accept the definition of the Word stated
by the Scripture?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was
in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that
was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the
darkness comprehended it not,"
John 1:1-5 (KJV)
The book of Revelation identifies the very God:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and
which is to come, the Almighty,"
Revelation 1:8 (KJV).
However, Isaiah identifies Jesus Christ as the Mighty God:
"...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace,"
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV).
Those are not multiple names, they are three titles in one name, "His name," embodied in the very God
of which Jesus Christ is. Only a few verses farther in Revelation, you find the following that is applied to
Jesus Christ:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,
'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, what thou seest, write in a book,
and send it unto the seven churches which arein Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto
Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea'. And I turned
to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in
the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down
to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as
white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in
a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out
of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strenth.
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,
'Fear not: I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead: and behold, I
am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death,"
Revelation 1:10-18 (KJV).
The final reference in Revelation states:
"'And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall
be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed
are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through
the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto
you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and
morning star,'"
Revelation 22:12-16 (KJV).
You have attempted to adopt a simplistic explanation in order to define a Godhead which is greater
than human understanding that breaks down under the scrutiny of the Scripture. You have defined God
on human terms, and in the process [what] you have done is divest Jesus Christ of deity, so He cannot
be your Savior, since by His death He could only have provided for His own salvation. Unless deity
paid the price for your sins, then no price was paid and you are still lost without hope of redemption.
#16B
I have been asked these questions several times and I have written out an explanation that I have sent
to many religious leaders.
I could not find your address on the "ondoctrine" page but if you would e-mail your
address I would be happy to send you the information that I have been sending them.
First, let me say that I believe what JEHOVAH and Jesus say no matter what the religious leaders are
teaching.
(Exodus 6:2-3) shows us that JEHOVAH is "God Almighty."
Isa 44:8 "...Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
JEHOVAH says that it doesn't matter how many individuals are "beside" Him, they are not "God" and
they are not to be called "God."
JEHOVAH is the only individual who is to be called "God."
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that "they might know thee the only true
God"...
Jesus say that his "Father" (JEHOVAH) is "the only true God."
In the beginning (which means "before" the physical realm (heaven and earth) was created and "before"
any of the angels (Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer for instance) were created) there were three separate
individuals.
JEHOVAH (YHWH, YHVH, I AM) -- the only true God -- Father.
The individual named "Word" -- later became known as "Jesus" -- Son.
The Holy Spirit -- Comforter -- teacher of the "truth" from the Scriptures.
JEHOVAH "adopted" the individual named "Word" and made him His Son.
John 3:16 For God
(JEHOVAH) so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son (Jesus), that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God
(JEHOVAH) sent not his Son (Jesus) into
the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Again, if you would like me to send the information PLEASE let me know.
I choose to be of the "seed of Abraham."
I believe JEHOVAH when he says that He, alone, is God.
I believe Jesus when he says that his "Father" (JEHOVAH) is "the only true God."
Each person will make their own choice and JEHOVAH will honor the choice we make.
I am asking you to believe JEHOVAH when He says that He, alone, is God.
I am asking you to believe JEHOVAH when He says that Jesus is "NOT" God.
I am asking you to believe Jesus when he says that his "Father" (JEHOVAH) is "the only true
God."
Thanks again
United States
[147-Vol 3]
#17
No one gets it all right down here in this fallen world. And this means you too.
I was there at John Wimbers meetings and saw deivls casted out, people healed by walking out of
wheel chairs and the lost come to the Lord crying and pouring thier hearts out to the God. And John
crying with them and loving them. John would say; you can never go wrong in praying for someone
because you are loving them in doing so.
Who appointed you to point out ones faults? And put it in print for all to see. I though the Word made
that clear whos job it is.....Jesus said the God of this world is judged.
Romans 8:30 And those He predestined,He also called; those He called, He also justified; those
He justified, He also glorified!!!!!
Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?
'' 8:34 Who is he that comdemns?
If you see a brother sinning a sin that is not unto death.....pray for him.
You have judged something you don't understand......you think you do but you havent got a clue. This is
not your place to point out the faults (that you think one has). You are to pray, love covers sin.
I pray that God will open your eyes of understanding.
John has always been covered by the blood of the Lamb...and now he is glorified.
United States
[134-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine.
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
I have never claimed to have gotten everything right, which is why I have the following posted on the
About page on the website:
"So, why do you think you know so much?
I have limited abilities, limited intellect and do not pretend to be an expert or final authority
regarding the articles that I write, but I do take responsibility for what is stated. In the event that
I misstate the facts or assume that which is untrue, I am willing to be corrected by a genuine
presentation of the facts and will admit to the errors that I make."
SEE - the About page at:
www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm
No leader is excused from a scrutiny of their conduct or the doctrines that they teach in relation to what
is found in the Scripture.
1. The apostle Paul was not exempt when the Bereans subjected his teaching to the Scripture, Acts
17:11.
2. The apostle Peter and Barnabus were not exempt from public criticism of their conduct by the
apostle Paul, Galatians 2:11-21.
3. Nathan rebuked king David for his sin, 2 Samuel 12:1-15.
4. Euodia and Syntyche were rebuked for their disunity, Philippians 4:2-3.
5. Hymenaeus and Alexander were delivered to Satan because of blasphemy, 1 Timothy
1:20.
6. Phygelus and Hermogenes are named as persons who turned away from the apostle Paul, 2 Timothy
1:15.
7. Hymenaeus and Philetus were noted for their false doctrine, 2 Timothy 2:17.
8. Demas is named as a lover of the world and deserted the apostle Paul, 2 Timothy 4:10.
9. Diotrephes was rebuked for speaking nonsense against the apostle John, refusing to speak to John
and removing the real brethren from the church, 3 John 9-10.
10. Abraham was rebuked by a pagan king because of his lying, Genesis 20:1-18.
11. Isaac was rebuked by a pagan king because of his lying, Genesis 26.
12. Balaam was rebuked by an ass and an angel, Numbers 22:21-35.
The problem in your argument is that you have used Romans 8:30, 33-34 improperly by presuming that
the passage allows you to justify and accept conduct and teaching on the part of your leadership that
may, in fact, be improper or false. The passage is a description of the courtroom of heaven and the
charge that cannot be brought against the believer is in relation to salvation. Those who God has
predestined, foreknown, justified and glorified are not subject to any charge that would prevent or
remove their salvation. The passage has nothing to do with scrutiny of the teachings of leaders. When
you apply Scripture improperly, then you will always come to the wrong conclusion.
I have never accused John Wimber of not being a Christian or not having obtained salvation. That is not
the issue discussed in the article.
As I have noted to others, who seem to believe that their leaders are exempt from scrutiny or
accountability, you have presented the contradiction in relation to what you claim to believe and what
you actually believe. If criticism is forbidden to me, then it is also forbidden to you and you should be
praying for me instead of writing a censure. If your leaders are exempt, then so am I.
#18
"The Mormon church considers the Bible to have been changed by corrupt Catholic priests, "
[Quote from statement by On Doctrine]
If you are going to talk about us, please get your facts straight.
The Catholic Church did a very good job of keeping the Bible almost correct. There priests were good
men trying to do good work, but from time to time mistakes were made.
thanks for your time
United States
[143-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Apparently you do not believe that the Mormon church has taught that the Catholic church is the origin
of the changes in the Bible that are claimed to have occurred, but actually attempted to prevent the
changes from happening. That is quite a leap away from the historical position of the Mormon church.
You only have to go to the Book of Mormon to read the first explanation:
"And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the
mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the plainness of the
gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the
truth which is in the Lamb of God. Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the
Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve
apostles of the lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the foundation of a great and
abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken
away from the gospel of the lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many
covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the
right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and
abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is
the book of the lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth
unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even
across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity,
thou seest - because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book,
which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in
the Lamb of God - because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an
exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."
1 Nephi 13:24-29
Jospeh Smith stated:
"Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many
errors."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327.
Apostle Orson Pratt stated:
"The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by
the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and recopied so many times, that it is
admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two
of them read alike."
The Seer, p. 213.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., stated:
"The early 'Apostate Fathers' did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any
scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from
the Biblical text."
Religious Truths Defined, p. 175.
Again, you only need to look at the Book of Mormon to find that some very precious things have been
removed and changed from the first edition printed in 1830. The following verses are examples of some
very significant revisions that change completely the original meaning of the verses:
1830 Edition
"And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of God, after the
manner of the flesh."
1 Nephi 11:18, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition
1982 Edition
"And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of the Son of
God, after the manner of the flesh."
1 Nephi 11:18, Book of Mormon, 1982 edition
1830 Edition
"And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!
Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?"
1 Nephi 11:21, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition
1982 Edition
"And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal
Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?"
1 Nephi 11:21, Book of Mormon, 1982 edition
1830 Edition
"And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld
the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God was judged of
the world; and I saw and bear record."
1 Nephi 11:32, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition
1982 Edition
"And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld
the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the Everlasting
God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record."
1 Nephi 11:32, Book of Mormon, 1982 edition
1830 Edition
"And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles,
shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known
the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all
kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the
world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved."
1 Nephi 13:40, Book of Mormon, 1830 edition
1982 Edition
"And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles,
shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known
the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all
kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father,
and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved."
1 Nephi 13:40, Book of Mormon, 1924 edition
From the very verses that it is claimed prove the unreliability of the Bible, the General Authorities
removed the plain and precious knowledge that the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) is the Eternal Father.
Because Joseph Smith changed his definition of God and Jesus Christ from the modalism found in the
Book of Mormon, it became necessary to change the revelation in the Book of Mormon to conform
with the claims of the prophet instead of the claims of the prophet conforming with the Book of
Mormon.
I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable person on the issue, however I am not ill-informed and I
can read the statements of Mormon leaders that are part of the historical record which speak directly to
the issue. The records are available, so you can do your own research on the matter.
#19
ORIGIN
"The Biblical Jesus Christ exists as co-equal with the Father from
eternity past.
The Mormon Jesus Christ is a spirit child of the heavenly father and one of his wives and his physical
body was a result of a sexual union of the heavenly father and Mary who is one of the spirit children of
the heavenly father. So the heavenly father had an incestuous relationship with one of his own daughters
in order to produce the temporal (physical) body of Jesus Christ into which his spirit entered."
[Quote from statement by On Doctrine]
You really need to do a better indepth study of this one.
Marry was a virgin when Christ was born.
As you stude, remember that NATURAL doen not mean SEXUAL liks some want you to believe.
thanks for yout time
United States
[144-Vol 3]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You are accepting a redefinition of the meaning of the English language in order to circumvent the
problem. The Presidents and General Authorities have stated that Jesus Christ was fathered in the same
manner as any other human child, in a "literal" and "natural" manner, which is a literal and natural sexual
relationship. If it is considered that those terms do not mean what they are defined to be, then the
Mormon church needs to be up front and explain the reason it is using standard terminology with
definitions unique only to itself.
Mormon Prophets and General Authorities have made it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ was fathered
in a sexual manner, the same as every other human being, and that the father was god.
"The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The
infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about this father and mother be true, and
the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe
that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that
to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or
ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His
power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and
afterwards temporal. . . . When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him
in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of
the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the
same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and
Eve; from the fruits of the earth the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in
succession."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50, 51.
"Let us take up a point of Scripture, and we will try to agree with Mr. B [Baptist], and take him along
with us a few moments, and find out where we disagree. We read in the Bible many things pertaining to
life and salvation. We first begin to read that Jesus came in the flesh. Now to touch that point, which I
do not purpose to do but slightly this morning, I am sure we shall disagree at the commencement. But
suppose I examine that, a moment. The New Testament tells me that the Father gave His only-begotten
Son a ransom for the sins of the world. Do you believe that, brother B? Do you believe that Jesus
Christ is the only-begotten Son of the Father? 'Yes.' do you believe the Son was begotten by the
Father, as the Apostles said he was? Here I shall have to disagree with you, to begin with; for I believe
the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world;
for he is the ONLY-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Gather did not actually beget him
in person. . . . I believe He has a tabernacle, and begat Jesus Christ in His express image and likeness,
because the Bible expressly declares it."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 238
"Things were first created spiritually, the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth
and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had
been created in this flesh himself... When the time came that His firstborn, the Saviour, should come into
the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle
instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same
Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and
you and me."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218
"The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary
the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This
is merely human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was
cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do
you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our Heavenly Father."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 268
"We bow to Him as the veritable Son of the living God in the fullest sense of he hallowed term. As
Mary was His saintly mother, so the Might God was His everlasting and literal Father. He was 'the only
begotten' of Deity, in the flesh, to die that man may live. This we once more affirm and declare as a
glorious truth and a fundamental of 'Mormon' faith."
Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 4, pp. 318-319
"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into
the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense
that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was
begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and
that designation means what it says."
Mormon Doctrine, Bruce. R. McConkie, p. 742
"And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a
Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And
the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living
offspring of an actual Father. . . . There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our
Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of
mortal fathers."
The Promised Messiah, Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 468-469
"And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity
of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord's generation to the world. Their testimony is that
Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon
himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother
and the power of immortality from his Father - in consequence of all of which he was able to work out
the infinite and eternal atonement."
The Promised Messiah, Bruce R. McConkie, pp. 472-473
"That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural
law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof, and, the offspring from that association of
supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son
of the Highest.' In His nature would be combined the powers of Godhood with the capacity and
possibilities of mortality; and this through the ordinary operation of the fundamental law of heredity,
declared of God, demonstrated by science, and admitted by philosophy, that living beings shall
propagate - after their kind. The Child Jesus was to inherit the physical, mental, and Spiritual traits,
tendencies, and powers that characterized His parents - one immortal and glorified - God, the other
human - woman."
Jesus the Christ, James E. Talmage, p. 81
The Mormon church has also redefined the meaning of "virgin" to denote a difference between having
sexual relations with a god as opposed to a human being. Given the definition, if Mary had sexual
relations with a human man such as Joseph, then she was not a virgin, but if she had sexual relations
with a human god, then she is still a virgin. That is not an acceptable differentiation by any legitimate
standard.
In Mormon theology God is defined as a literal man who, although exalted, is still human with a body
and possessed of all of the human sexual organs and genetic material necessary to accomplish the act of
procreation, which he has been accomplishing with his wives on his planet for millions of years and will
continue to do on into eternity, and is the manner in which Mormons claim that the spirit of man is
produced. God and his wives have literal sexual relations and his wives produce spiritual children
through a literal process of birth. That is the point of having the father come to earth to procreate the
temporal body of Jesus Christ, and at the point of the procreative act, Mary was no longer a virgin.
There is also the issue regarding the claim that god and Mary were married - that they were husband
and wife, a claim that was introduced in order to legitimize what was realized to be an immoral
relationship. The concept of polygamy is first utilized in order to justify the actions of god in having
sexual relations with a woman who was already considered to be married. If the terms "literal" and
"natural" are said to mean something other than an actual, physical, sexual union of god with Mary,
(such as a creative act) then no marriage would have been necessary and certainly no polygamous
union. That fact that the Mormon church claims the existence of the marriage and the consequent
polygamous union, validates the reality that the union was sexual and at the same time it was incestuous.
Mary and Joseph were espoused to each other, which was considered to be the same as a marriage
and required a bill of divorcement to dissolve. Brigham Young realized the difficulty and stated that
Mary had two husbands - Joseph and god, so Mary engaged in polyandry which is having more than
one husband at one time, something that is completely outside the parameters of the polygamy
revelation. Was god married to Mary for a time only, or will she be the wife of god in her exalted state
or have they been divorced? Will she continue to bear spiritual children with her father god or will she
be the wife of Joseph or perhaps the wife of both god and Joseph for eternity? Mormon leadership
have no legitimate answers for those questions, because they are not part of the foundational revelation
of the Book of Mormon, but must be answered by a claim of direct revelation received by the Living
Prophet. No such revelation has been received. The reality is, that the current claims regarding the
paternity of Jesus Christ contradict directly the statement in the Book of Mormon and are in direct
opposition to the claimed revelation given directly by god through the golden plates:
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a
virgin, a precious vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy
Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."
Alma 7:10
If Joseph Smith had not changed his original beliefs about the godhead, in which he considered the Holy
Ghost to be simply a power, emanation or the mind of God, then there would be no difficulty in the
book of Alma. But when he asserted that the Holy Ghost was an actual personage, then the problem
becomes insurmountable. Since the Mormon church has accepted his pronouncement over the
authoritative revelation in the Book of Mormon, then it is left with the difficulty of trying to circumvent
the issue and that is the reason it has adopted the strategy of redefining the terms rather than accepting
the Book of Mormon. If the church accepts the Book of Mormon, then it must reject Joseph Smith as
being a true prophet, which would destroy the authority of the Presidency, and of course that is seen to
be unacceptable, so it must reject the Book of Mormon which it considers to be the lesser problem,
since the majority of current Mormon doctrines are not found in the Book of Mormon anyway.
LATER ADDENDUM
The Book of Mormon states specifically the manner in which it is claimed that Jesus Christ was
conceived:
"And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of
the flesh."
1 Nephi 11:18 (1830 edition)
#20
Let God be the Judge. And keep in mind that He (God) will Judge you also.
As you obviously know, false teaching is spoken about in roughly 1/3 of the Christian Bible. And as you
have proven... you can make scripture say what ever you like when its taken out of context such as
your above article on John Wimber, the Toronto Blessing etc (Which actually come across as you
expressing bitterness that you may hold, check your self while you are able my friend).
I pray that the Lord manifest His love to you, and that the Holy Spirit Touches your heart and mind
(mind must really be emotions wouldnt you think??) (look up your concordance on "mind" and then
your dictionary to see weather mind and emotions could possibly be linked in any way).
God bless you.
follower of Christ Jesus.
Amen
[152-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
When I receive a criticism such as yours, I always have to mention that you don't seem to see the
contradiction between what you claim to believe and what you actually believe. If criticism is forbidden
to me in relation to your favorite teacher, it is also forbidden to you in relation to me. If you want me to
"Let God be the Judge," then you need to follow your own advice.
There is a very popular reaction in the secular world to a critical review of issues that it might find to be
unpopular, that attempts to find fault with the person who brings the issue to light, by stating that the
person is unkind, unloving or has an ulterior motive. This is done in order to find an excuse to ignore the
issues so they do not have to be considered. This approach has also become very popular in the
Christian world in order to ignore the criticisms leveled against leaders who violate legal and moral
ordinances and teach outside the boundaries of the Scriptural mandates. You have adopted the same
tactic by claiming the ability to discern that I am "expressing bitterness" which is an ability that you don't
actually possess.
You did not really consider the issues in relation to John Wimber and you did not attempt to resolve the
17 theological objections to the Toronto Blessing or the 8 doctrinal errors presented by John Arnott in
support of the phenomenon. When you deal with those issues from a biblical standpoint, then I will
consider your comments to have actual substance.
SEE the articles:
"John Wimber"
"Toronto Blessing"
#21
Heresy Hunters,
Nice name huh? You act as if it is an honor for you to be called such, but I differ with you. You use the
words of men and women that are made of the same ingredients as yourself and turn them into some of
the most un Godly, demonic doctrine imaginable before the throne of God.
I have listeened to these people over the years and have never heard or even imagined the things that
you purport to be true. Could it be that you choose of your own free will to be decieved. Are you so
thirsty to write an "Expose" on others that you can possibly take the time away from preaching the true
gospel; of Jesus Christ that al you can do is talk about the mistruths that seem to hear from other
laborers. Are you going to judge these people? Doesn't the bible say that the word of God will do the
judging, so who are you to judge another.
Does God need your help to judge the world of whether they believe Him or not? Of whether they
walked in the truth or not?
I don't think so. But you probably will think I am part of that group too. More than likely, you will
disagree with any one who doesn't believe as you wish. How sad of you that you think so highly of
yourself and so lowly of others. I would beware of that attitude and possibly change before it is too late.
God will judge for judgng others. Pray fro them! If they are doing wrong that God wil have mercy and
change them before it is too late. Then when God see's that you are willing to ask mercy for others then
perhaps He will have mercy on you. I have never heard some of these people place any condemnation
on you, why would choose to condemn them. Jesus did not come to condemn, but to forgive.
Do I have to say more or will you listen to wisdom? Or do you have some great truth from God that the
rst of us do not understand? Or maybe you think you are the only one smart enough to understand? If
not, then please understand you are not the judge. And neither is Hank!
Preach the Word, in season and out of season. Always be ready to give an answer for the hope within
you, but who said anything about Exposes? Did something just go over my head?
Please feel free to respond if you choose, just not with your foolishness, but with Godly understanding.
[156-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I really don't have to hunt very hard for the heresy, it is broadcast into my home twenty-four hours a
day by many of the people noted on the On Doctrine website.
If you were really concerned, then you might take just a few of the issues presented on the website and
make an attempt to refute my claims from the Scripture in relation to what is said to be error on the part
of your favorite teachers. I have presented the documentation for their statements and writings, so it
should be easy for you to find the info and prove that they have not stated what I have
claimed.
I have dealt with Matthew 7:1-2, 3-5 in an article on the On Doctrine website:
"Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
I have never made a judgement or statement about the salvation of any individual which you are
attempting to claim that I have. Only Jesus Christ judges the salvation of individuals. If you wish to deal
with what I have said, then I am willing to discuss the issues, but if you are going to fabricate a scenario
and attempt to argue against your false claim, then there can be no discussion.
You do not seem to see the contradiction between what you claim to believe and what you actually
believe and practice. If you claim that the "word of God will do the judging" then why do you object
when I have presented the biblical evidence in relation to the teachings and conduct of the individuals
discussed on the website? If you think that a critical review of your favorite teachers is forbidden to me,
then your criticism of me is also forbidden to you.
The problem is, that many of the teachers that you are trying to defend are not preaching the word
found in the Scripture but are preaching a word of their own creation. You do not wish to see or deal
with the error because they are telling you what you wish to believe about yourself.
#22
Comment on article on Rick Godwin....who in the world wrote it, on what does that person base these
theories that Benny Hinn is a false prophet. I keep seeing false prophet, false prophet with no specific
statements said by him to prove that. They may need to go back and get their twisted opinions and
facts straight.
United States
[160-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
In the article on Rick Godwin, the first mention of Benny Hinn's name has a font color of light blue,
indicating a link to another article. If you had clicked the link, the documentation would have been in the
article. The article notes four false prophecies given by Benny Hinn.
You can find the article at:
BENNY HINN
When you access the article, scroll down to the first category which is, Prophecies of Benny
Hinn.
I hope this answers your concerns.
#23
Morris Cerullo's false prophecy
You claim the prophecy about financial crisis is a lie, what exactly is on now?
Financial empowerment???
[161-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I am amazed at your reply.
Apparently you must believe that even on the darkest night, the sun is actually shining on you.
Morris Cerullo stated his prophecy with conditions attached that placed its fulfillment within a specific
time frame. I even highlighted in red the time that he stated the prophecy would come true, so here is his
statement again:
"It will make the Wall Street crash of 1929 seem like a picnic.
And that crisis will come before the year 1994."
The year 1994 was 14 years ago and there never was a world-wide or national economic crisis that
even approached the nature of what happened in 1929.
If you continue to deny what Morris Cerullo said, because you want so desperately to believe what he
tells you about yourself, then you will continue to be deceived by your own choice.
SEE the article:
MORRIS CERULLO
#24
I went through everything you said about Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland. Satan has given you a
lot of work to do, but its not possible for the devil to succeed against God's word. You misinterpreted
these guys to fulfil the mandate given you of the Devil. I pity those that listen to you but God won't let
darkness overcome light.
If you are a christians, u need to ask God for forgiveness because you have given Satan 100% of your
head but there is a chance that you can be saved because of God's mercy. Its a pity that a person who
claims to have any spiritual sense at all will interpret scriptures the way you do.
How on earth did you study those messages that have blessed and liberated untold millions and millions
of people on earth to draw such conclusions? Your interpretations were at best a manifestation of high
level of spiritual ignorance, purposeful distortions of truth and personal hatred. I advice you to seek
spirtual counsel and save your soul.
I am not an American, so, I have no personal relationship with Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland,
Benny Hinn or any of those you people are bent on pulling down, I am a Nigerian! I am just shocked at
the level of your conscious manipulations of Truth these men have been anointed of God to teach in
order to gain cheap popularity. You need to really pray. You far gone in the way of death, but God is
merciful,He will forgive you, and help come out of the grip of satan and save your soul.
May the good Lord forgive you
Nigeria
[167-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I do not know if you read everything about Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin on the website, so
here is a list of the links to the major articles - mainly Kenneth Copeland.
"KENNETH COPELAND" - main article
Kenneth Copeland: What Did He Say?"
"Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Mark 11:12-23 and False
Prophecies"
"Kenneth Copeland: Touching God's Anointed"
Kenneth Copeland Quotes
Mail Call - messages to On Doctrine - message
#1
You have not dealt with any of the issues presented in the articles from a biblical perspective. If what
Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland have said is true, then their statements should be found and
confirmed in the Bible and it should be very easy to prove me wrong in my opposition.
I will issue you a challenge. I will retract any statement that I have made regarding a claim by Kenneth
Hagin or Kenneth Copeland that I have said is false, if you can find and present the biblical support for
what they teach. I know that Kenneth Copeland claims the office of a prophet, and justifies many of his
statements by claiming that God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit have spoken directly to him, but he
cannot demonstrate the credentials of a prophet on any level, so his statements regarding claimed
revelations have no authority, are not Scripture and cannot be used as support. Your challenge is to
provide the biblical references that confirm his statement, and that means book, chapter and verse as
stated in the Bible, not what Kenneth Hagin or Kenneth Copeland claim the Bible says.
Since you believe that I have taken Kenneth Copeland's statements out of context, I would expect that
you can place them in the proper context and at that same time provide the biblical foundation that
confirms his words. I would not have issued this challenge if I thought it would be easy or that you
would be successful. I know that you are going to find the task to be very difficult and at the same time
very frustrating.
If you ignore the challenge, I will not be offended, but that will be your loss. However, if you cannot
provide a biblical defense, then you have placed your faith in the authority of Kenneth Copeland
without a [foundation] to do so.
The following are some claims that Kenneth Copeland has made, along with his statements quoted in
italics. You can start with them:
1. Jesus Christ existed only in the heart of God prior to the existence of the Old Testament
prophets who spoke Him into existence:
"Jesus existed only as an image in the heart of God, until such time as the prophets of the Old
Testament could positively confess Jesus into existence through their constant prophecies."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"God is injecting His word into the earth to produce this Jesus. This faith-filled words that framed
the image that's in Him."
-- Kenneth Copeland
2. Jesus was raped by Roman soldiers.
"Let me tell you something folks. Anybody in here that's ever been sexually abused, listen to me
right now. Listen to me very carefully. The Bible's very careful about the way it says these things. But
down there in that dungeon, Romans, ungodly men, ungodly men, put Him to ever kind of abuse that
you can think of. There is no sin that Jesus didn't bare. There is no thing, there is no such thing as a
sexual abuse on somebody that Jesus doesn't know firsthand what it's all about. He's been where you
are. I don't care what you've been through, Jesus has been through it. And everythings done to him that
we couldn't even speak of."
-- Kenneth Copeland
3. The atonement was not accomplished on the cross:
"Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been
any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that
price. It wasn't physical death. Anybody could do that."
-- Kenneth Copeland
4. The atonement was accomplished in hell:
"The place designated as hell is Sheol or Hades. Before Jesus died and arose, hell was the abode of
the spirits of men after death. It was divided into two compartments, which were separated by a great
gulf: one, which housed the souls of the righteous and the other, the unrighteous. In Jesus' reference to
Lazarus and the rich man, hell was a place of torment for the unrighteous, while the righteous obtained
comfort at Abraham's bosom. While Jesus' body lay in the sepulcher or grave, His spirit was delivered
to hell. he went not just into the comfort zone, but into the depth to be punished for Adam's treason and
our sin."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"Now here's the part I want you to get. When He said, 'It is finished,' on that cross he was not
speaking of the plan of redemption -- the plan of redemption had just begun. There were still three days
and three nights to be gone through before He went to the throne."
-- Kenneth Copeland
5. Jesus Christ was tortured in hell by Satan and his demons:
"When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still
three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. . . Jesus' death on the cross was only
the beginning of the complete work of redemption."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"Satan conquered Jesus on the cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell. . . . He allowed Himself to come under
Satan's control. . . every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him. . . . They tortured Him
beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there was to
suffer."
-- Kenneth Copeland
6. Jesus died spiritually:
"Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price."
-- Kenneth Copeland
7. Jesus Christ was the first "born again man".
"In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished
spirit of Jesus . . . [in] the pit of destruction, and changed the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power!
Suddenly His twisted, death wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life . . . He was literally
being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles . . . Jesus Christ
dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell . . . Jesus . . . was raised up a born-again man . . . The day
I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited . . .!"
-- Kenneth Copeland
"In hell He suffered for you and for me. The Bible says hell was made for Satan and his angels. it
was not made for men. Satan was holding the Son of God there illegally . . . The trap was set for Satan
and Jesus was the bait."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"He was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for
Adam's treason. . . . There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the heart when the command
of God says, 'That's enough, loose him and let him go'."
-- Kenneth Copeland
8. God had to use the force of faith to create the universe.
"But let me tell you something! Do you realize that I have the same faith in me that God used to
create this planet? 'Are you kidding me, I could not create a planet, I could not create a basketball.' . . .
that's not the same thing we're talking about, but it is the same faith, the reason I can't function on that
level yet is because I don't have the wisdom about it that God has. But yet that wisdom is here. 'Well
you really think you got that?' Yeah, and I'm not done either yet, praise the Lord. I'm still developing.
I'm still building. We've got eternity. Glory to God."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"You can stop the force of it and cause it to be feeble even though it's the very faith of Jesus
Himself. The very faith that God used when He created, and what we read there in the first 2 chapters
of Genesis, is the faith that's burning in your spirit. . . . 'Well, He created all those planets, how come
you can't create something?' You don't know as much about it as he does. He has greater working
knowledge of that faith than you do. But we're learning. Our time is coming. And in some ways it's
already here."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"God cannot do anything for you apart or separate from faith. Faith is God's source of
power."
-- Kenneth Copeland
9. God is the same size as a human being and Adam looked exactly the same as God.
"God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words stuck Adam's body in the
face. His body and God's were exactly the same size."
-- Kenneth Coepland
"If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike. . . . If you stood Jesus and Adam
side-by-side, they would look and act and sound exactly alike. . . . The image is that they look just alike
but the likeness is that they act alike and they are alike. . . . All of God's attributes, all of God's
authority, all of God's faith, all of God's ability was invested in that man."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"The Bible said He measured the heavens with a 9 inch span. Now the span is the difference,
distance between the end of the thumb and the end of the little finger. And, and that Bible said in fact
the amplified translation translates the Hebrew text that way. That He measured out the heavens with a
9 inch span. Well, I got a ruler and measured mine, and my span's 8 3/4 inches long. So now God's
span is a quarter of an inch, a quarter inch longer than mine. So you see, that faith didn't come billowing
out of some giant monster somewhere. It came out of the heart of a being that is very uncanny the way
He's very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6' 2", 6' 3", that weighs
somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, has a span of 8 and, I
mean nine inches across - stood up and said, 'Light be', and this universe situated itself and went into
motion. Glory to God."
-- Kenneth Copeland
God is a "spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands
and fingers, and feet."
-- Kenneth Copeland
10. God is both male and female.
"Then, he created Eve out of Adam. Now, actually God didn't name here Eve, Adam named her
Eve later. That wasn't her name, her name was Adam . . . Adam. When God said Adam, they both
came. Their authority was one and the same together. They did everything together. They had always
been together. Even when she was still part of him, he was as much female as he was male, LIKE
GOD IS. and God separated the female part of him and then ut them back together. And she was
Adam, they were Adam. He was the man, she was the woman, She was the man with the
womb."
-- Kenneth Copeland
11. God created Adam & Eve as exact duplicates of Himself - equal to God.
"Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce himself. I mean a reproduction of
Himself. And in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He [Adam] was not a little like God, He was not
almost like god, he was not subordinate to God even . . . Adam was as much like God as you can get,
just the same as Jesus. Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh."
-- Kenneth Copeland
12. Adam was both male and female.
"Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was edactly like
God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means 'man with the womb.' Eve
had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together."
-- Kenneth Copeland
13. Adam was created as the god of this earth.
"Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce himself. I mean a reproduction of
Himself. And in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He [Adam] was not a little like God, He was not
almost like god, he was not subordinate to God even . . . Adam was as much like God as you can get,
just the same as Jesus. Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh."
-- Kenneth Copeland
14. Adam, as a result of his sin, gave control of the earth to Satan and God could do nothing about
it.
"Adam committed high treason, and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given to
him was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in. . . . After Adam's fall,
God found Himself in a peculiar position. . . . God needed an avenue back into the earth. . . . God laid
out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to
God. . . . Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself."
-- Kenneth Copeland
"God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. he had to have covenant with somebody.
He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn't come. God is on the outside looking in. in order
to have say so in the earth, He's going to have to be in agreement with man here."
-- Kenneth Copeland
#25A
I have read with sadness, the articles that have been written against the various Christians you mention.
As a committed christian myself, of many years, I have had the pleasure of spending some really
valuable time with various brothers and sisters of different denominations of the christian faith.
Though, it is becoming more apparent to me that as I get older, and is more and more obvious to me,
that the true hinderance to the world is not so much the non believers as it is the believers!. It is
absolutely no wonder that the world that we live in, is in the mess that it is. Quite frankly the devil only
has to sit back and let some of the christians do his job for him.
I thought that we as (Christians) were all on the same side, believing in the same God and loving and
protecting one another. Not so, it would seem!
The sad repercussion of all this bickering amongst, our (dare I say it) leaders, is that I find it very
difficult now, to introduce Jesus/God to anyone, as quite honestly I am ashamed of the way some of us
tear into one another, in full view of non believers. Who, in their right mind is going to believe in a God,
whose own people destroy one another with words and weapons. God had a hard time with his people
in days gone by, and it seems that he still has today.
Perhaps it would be admirable, and maybe to be remembered, that none of us are so great as we think
we are, if that were the case , then perhaps God would not have needed to send Jesus to us all.
'Love one another as I have loved you' .......................... and maybe , just maybe, we can call
ourselves followers of Christ!!
Regards
[172-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Not everyone who claims to preach the biblical gospel message is doing so and not everyone who
claims to be a Christian actually is. That was the concern of the apostles and of Jesus Christ Himself.
That is the reason On Doctrine exists, because Christians have lost the ability to discern the true biblical
message from the false and true pastoral shepherds from the wolves in sheep's clothing.
It is always possible to obtain some type of unity if both parties adopt the lowest common denominator
that is acceptable to both, which usually involves changing the nature of the gospel message or
abrogating the biblical imperatives regarding conduct and doctrine. That is the specific point of the
articles on the website. There are issues raised that should be of concern to you, but are not because
you don't see their significance in relation to the Scripture and you also do not wish to deal with them
from the standpoint that they call into question the claims of your favorite teachers.
I think that the secular world is far more discerning regarding a number of the leaders discussed on the
website than their followers, which is why some are coming under the scrutiny of the US senate,
because of the lack of financial accountability and the lavish lifestyles enjoyed at the expense of donors.
Then there are the scandals that have made the headlines for years. Of course none of that could
possibly have any negative effect on those to whom you wish to witness. It's only those who present the
issues who are the aberration, while those who have created the problem are the ones said to have
been violated.
#25B
Hi,
Thankyou for your point of view, which of course you are entitled to. I am well aware of the
'Wolves in Sheeps clothing-- I meet them every day! But for you to assume that you know me
well enough to be able to say I am unable to dicern the true biblical message etc etc, is
not in itself very dicerning .
I have no favourite teachers, the only teacher I have is Christ himself and the message that he has left
for all of us to read in his scriptures. As I said EVERYBODY somewhere along the line will not see
things the same way as others do, and I am certainly not going to pull another christian apart, there is a
far higher judge than I who will in the end do that, if need be.
Even David in scripture when confronted by Saul , who as you know was bent on eliminating David,
would not kill him even though he had the chance, but took a piece of his clothing, saying that he
would not touch the Lords anointed! I certainly do not want to be judged for touching the lords
anointed, and yes I know that there are many out there who claim to be God people but from their
fruits you know other wise, I just close my ears to them and pray for them.I am not arguing with you,
you have your reasons for what you say, all I'm saying is dont be fooled into thinking that you can put
the whole Christian thing to rights, you wont! If it were possible then Jesus would not have to come
back again. Yes be wary. I certainly am, but also be very careful ( for your own sake) of who you
condem and who you dont. Let Jesus be the Judge of that, and If christians read the bible as they
should, they themselves, will be aware that there are people out there who claim to be doing
the Lords work and are not.( Yes I also realise that there are many who are fooled too) ONLY Jesus
knows the heart of a man, we do not, And to assume that you do, then places you in the same
position of those that you are trying to help others avoid!
You are My brother in Christ, and for that I respect you, You never know maybe the Lord has asked
me to place my point of view in order to help you too. I pray that you are blessed and leave you with
the love of Christ.
Kind regards
[212-Vol 5]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE the article, "Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
#26
I am deeply upset by the lack of understanding you have about the Word of God and Jesus Christ our
Lord and Saviour. First of all if Jesus did not die spiritually than we who have been spiritually dead
would not be able to become born again.Jesus had to experiance everything we would be faced with or
the devil would have a case to say that Jesus didn't pay for everything. And another issue is what do
you think Jesus was talking about when he said the theif comes only to kill, steal and destroy but I have
come that you may have life and have it more abundantly, not less abundent. You must study the new
testiment that is what was written to the church today. The Word says that God is a REWARDER of
them that DILIGENTLY seek him, that means reading his word and rightly deviding the word of truth. I
heard it best from Kenneth Copeland a wonderfull man of God, Why would you wait until you die to
recieve your inheritance from your parents? It doesnt make much sense does it? You recieve your
inheritance whe [ part of message lost during transmission]
And last thing I want to share tonight is that Jesus, who the word says was the word made flesh and
dwelt among us, has to be your Lord before he can be your saviour. That is the correct order as it is
listed in the Bible. That means in order for you to be saved you must put the Word of God first which
means you have to understand it in order for it to save you.
Please respond if you have any questions.
United States
[176-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
When you start with a wrong premise, then you will always come to a wrong conclusion. If it were
necessary that Jesus Christ be "born again", as Kenneth Copeland teaches, then your conclusion would
be correct, but the problem is that the teaching is simply what Kenneth Copeland says and not what the
Scripture says. The problem is always the same with Kenneth Copeland: Who is the authority, Kenneth
Copeland or the Scripture? I will issue you a challenge. If you can find even one verse in the Scripture
stating that Jesus Christ was "born again" then I will print an apology to Kenneth Copeland and post it
on the main page of the website.
If Jesus Christ became a sinner, requiring that He be "born again", then He would have died as a
penalty for His own sins and not for yours or mine. If He needed to be "born again", then who died for
His sins?
John 10:10 is the reference to the thieves and robbers and is part of the Parable of the Good Shepherd.
Jesus Christ explains very well what was meant. He explained it twice, because his audience didn't get it
the first time, "This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things
were which He had been saying to them," John 10:6 (NAS).
John 10:1 is the first explanation by Jesus Christ:
". . . he who does not enter by the door [Jesus Christ] into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some
other way, he is a thief and a robber."
Jesus Christ is the door to salvation and those who attempt to claim salvation by any other means or
gain entrance into the presence of God apart from Him are false teachers and false prophets, and they
are the thieves and robbers because they wish to steal the souls of humanity by teaching another gospel
that leads to damnation.
Jesus Christ repeated what He had just said:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and
robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
I am the door; if anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find
pasture.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it
abundantly," vss. 7, 8, 9, 10 (NAS).
The life is the life that Jesus Christ gives in opposition to death given by the thieves and robbers, and
the abundant life is eternal life.
Kenneth Copeland wishes you to accept his claims that the abundant life is your temporal existence on
earth where he claims you can have every amenity you can desire, all the money you could ever spend,
perfect health and ideal personal relationships, if only you exercise the power of faith by means of the
words that you speak and the offerings of money to his ministry, and God must grant them all to you.
You won't find that to be a part of John 10:10.
Your reference to God as a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him is from Hebrews 11:6.
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and
that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." (NAS)
Again you accept Kenneth Copeland's teaching implying that the reference is about your temporal
wants: your money, health and personal relationships. Have you read Hebrews chapter 11 and verse 6
in context? The reward is approval by God as a result of faith in His promises and in the salvation
secured through Jesus Christ, which is THE promise, Hebrews 10:35-39.
If you wish to use Hebrews 11 as a foundation, then you must also accept what it says about the nature
of what the persons mentioned there received or did not receive.
1. Abel - by faith offered a sacrifice pleasing to God, the result of which was his murder by the hand of
his brother, Cain. Not quite what is claimed should be the inheritance of Christians.
2. Enoch - translated to heaven because he pleased God, never finishing a life on earth
.
3. Noah - lost everything he had in order to be preserved in the ark, but gained and became heir of the
"righteousness which is according to faith."
4. Abraham - obeyed God by faith, never possessing the land that God said would be his.
Kenneth Copeland teaches you that your inheritance is a right to health, wealth, happiness and security
throughout your entire life on this earth. The Scripture states that your inheritance is salvation and the
favor of God through Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 1:3-9; Matthew 25:34; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:11,
Colossians 1:12-13; Colossians 3:23-24; Hebrews 9:15.
[Part of your message was cut-off during transmission, so I don't know what your final comment
regarding the inheritance was.]
The question for you in relation to understanding the word is, how much of the word must you
understand before you can be saved? Do you have to know everything in the Bible? What are the
standards of knowledge that you apply?
The Scripture states that you must believe that God exists, and accept and understand the gospel
message in order to be saved, but I am at a loss to find that there is any other type of knowledge
required for that to happen.
#27A
Dear Mr. MacArthur,
A denominational friend of mine told me to check out your sermon on
baptism, which I just did.
I don't really know where to begin. In Mark 16:15-16, Jesus himself says
those who believe and are baptized will be saved. He didn't say believe and yu are saved and then get
baptized to show everyone you are saved. That makes baptism of no importance as far as salvation is
concerned.
In Romans 6, Paul IS talking about water baptism and thats clearly
evident by all else in the NT about it. Buried with Christ in a watery grave to arise a new creature,
symbolically coming in contact with the cleasning blood.
Wgat did the eunuech ask Philip? "See, there is water, what prevents me
from being baptized?" If baptism is just a ceremony to show everyone else that you're saved, why did
Philip even "bother" with it since they were out inthe middle of nowhere?
As for Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" is scripturally correct.
"Because of the remmision of sins" is found in only a handful of translations.
I was a Southern Baptist for many years. Last year (June '07), a Christian
that I work with challenged me on baptism, instrumental music in worship, the taking of the Lord's
Supper every Sunday, even about calling my preacher a pastor. I delved into the bible like never
before, determined to prove him wrong! Guess what? I discovered the Truth. Like so many people
before me, I found the denominational churches to be wrong on so many things.
My wife and I visited a church of Christ that my friend had suggested,
mostly to make him happy. I heard wonderful congregational singing with no choir or instruments to
contend with, and we joined in with full voices. I then heard an excellent lesson from the Word of god.
Even though I had been baptized in the Baptist church years earlier, I sat there with palms sweating and
chest pounding and I knew hwat I had to do. I was baptized and added to the Lord's chuch that night
and I give thanks, praise and glory to my Heavenly Father for showing me the Way. And the truth.
I travel on my job and see all these churches that are not worshipping in
"Spirit and in Truth" and it sadens me. The lost souls of course, but also the lost opportunities. Just think
of the people and funds that would be available for mission work if we all were in the same church.
There is only one church, founded on the day of Pentecost and it bears His name. The church of
Christ.
"...narrow is the gate and few there be who find it."
As with most peopole outside the Lord's church, probably nothing I've
written here will be taken to heart, but I have at least tried. Having come to a knowledge of the Truth, it
truly breaks my heart to know that the vast majority of good, Christ loving people will always be in
error. Just like my Baptist friend that I spoke of at the start of this letter. But I'm not givin up. The Lord
didn't give up on me. Thank you so much for your time. I hope to meet you someday.
May God bless you and yours
United States
[178-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Welcome to On Doctrine,
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
Please note that all messages sent on the On Doctrine Contact page are received by On
Doctrine only. On Doctrine does not forward messages without prior consent of the
recipient.
You can send your message by e-mail to John MacArthur at:
letters@gty.org
You can also send your message by regular mail to one of the following addresses:
Grace Community Church
13248 Roscoe Boulevard
Sun Valley, California 91352
Grace To You
P.O. Box 4000
Panorama City, California 91412
Here are a few things to consider.
What you are adopting is a works form of salvation, because if you do not perform a specific
action in a specific manner you cannot have salvation. There are problems with that view,
because works is not the means to salvation but actually prevents salvation. Another issue is
the fact that you must postulate that everyone who might accept the gospel message, but
cannot be baptized in the manner that you describe due to circumstances beyond their control, are
damned. So, a soldier on the battlefield, a person in the hospital dying with cancer, a person in
the arctic in the dead of winter or in the desert cannot be saved. That is simply not acceptable. If
there is even one biblical exception to what you claim is the proper means of salvation through
baptism, then your theology fails the test. The most obvious exception is the following:
"One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, 'Are you not the Christ?
Save Yourself and us!' But the other answered, and rebuking him said, 'Do you not even fear God,
since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we
are receiving what we deserve for our deed" but this man has done nothing wrong.'And he was saying,
'Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!' and He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today
you shall be with Me in paradise."'
Luke 23-39-43 (NAS)
The question is, how did the man enter into the kingdom if he could not obtain salvation without
being baptized, since he could not have been baptized while on the cross?
In relation to the Ethiopian, he was reading from Isaiah, and there is no teaching in the Old
Testament that baptism was necessary to obtain salvation. Philip did not introduce the subject
of baptism in relation to the salvation message, it was the Ethiopian.
There are other instances where forgiveness of sins was granted apart from baptism:
The paralytic
Mark 2-1-12
Jesus forgive his sins when he had not been baptized and Jesus made no statement about baptism.
The immoral woman
Luke 7-37-50
Her sins were forgiven, not as a result of baptism, but because, 'Your faith has saved you . .
The tax collector
Luke 18:13-14
He was justified by saying, "God, be merciful to me, the sinner," not as a result of baptism.
The apostles
John 15:3
There is no statement in the Scripture indicating that the apostles were ever baptized, yet Jesus
Christ said: "You are already clean [or pruned] because of the word which I have spoken to
you."
Cornelius and Peter
Acts 10,44-48
All the gentiles received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized.
The apostle Paul specifically stated that he was sent not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, 1
Corinthians 1:17. If baptism is part of the gospel message, then why didn't the apostle Paul
say so and why didn't he baptize?
If it is necessary to be baptized in order to obtain salvation, but there are people who have
obtained salvation apart from baptism, then there must be a dualistic method of salvation in
which it is necessary to be baptized in one instance but not in another. That means there are
two means of salvation, which is denied in the Scripture.
There are many resources on the On Doctrine website, so, please come back again for a visit.
#27B
The response I received from you concerning baptism for salvation is the typical one. All the same
scenarios I have been presented with in the past.
As far as the soldier on the battlefield and other such instances, they have had opportunities before then
to hear the Gospel and be saved. Thats the old adage of living like you want and being saved at the last
minute.
As for the thief on the cross, I have a tract on that I could send you. I don't mean to sound harsh but
your response shows the average denominationalist ignorance of the Word. Christ was still alive when
He personally forgave the thief, so the New Covenant wasn't yet in place. That came with our Lords
death, burial, and resurrection.
The converts receiving the Holy Ghost prior to their baptism and salvation was an act of the Apostles
and that miraculous time. Hasn't applied since.
What happened when Jesus was baptized? The Holy Spirit desended on Him like a dove.
Mark 16:16 "...and they that believe and are baptized shall be saved."
The words of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. If this was the only scripture in the entire New Testament
that mentioned baptism, it would be sufficient. It absolutely astounds me how good, honest,
well-meaning and God fearing people can just ignore this verse or change it to fit their creeds.
Does the church you attend worship scripturally? Are there mechanical instruments interfering with
singing? Do you take the Lord's supper ( communion) every first day of the week? Do you give from
the heart as you have been prospered or do you "tithe"? Does your preacher teach a lesson from the
Bible or give a "sermon" on almost any topic? And most importantly, is the invitation given to come
forward, repent, confess Christ is the Son of God, and be baptized into Christ and to wash away your
sins?
This is New Testament Christianity as taught to and by the Apostles and handed down to man through
the Bible.
Man has taken God's message and corrupted it. Surprise! Surprise! Satan loves it.
There are plenty of good, intelligent, God loving preachers like John MacArthur who just refuse to
accept the simple message of salvation. That is a shame and such a waste of a talent that could be used
to spread the Truth.
Look at all the different churches with all their different philosophies. The Lord only founded one
church. The church of the New Testament, the church of Christ. I humbly and lovingly invite you to visit
one in your area. Thanks for your time.
In Christian love
United States
[186-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
The response you received is "typical" because it is based on examples from the Scripture with which
you are unwilling to deal. The talking points of the Church of Christ are not sufficient and do not
address the issues, just as your reply does not.
When you adopt a legalistic gospel message, then you become a legalist yourself and not only that, you
become the arbiter of legalism for everyone else. Where, in the Bible, do you get the idea that since a
person may have heard the gospel at some time earlier in their life, that when they hear it later they are
not qualified to accept the gospel message? So, a twelve-year-old cannot be saved because they did
not accept the gospel message when they heard it when they were six-years old?
You completely missed the point in relation to the example of the soldier on the battlefield. It was not an
example of a person accepting the gospel at the end of their life, but of a person accepting the gospel
apart from the ability to be baptized, which was the point of the person in the Arctic, the person in the
desert and the person dying of cancer in the hospital. So, if the person is unable to be baptized for a
day, a week, a month - then they aren't actually saved during that interim period even though they have
believed the gospel message, repented of their sins and trusted Jesus Christ as their Savior? I guess,
given those circumstances, a person must guard their life carefully during the interim lest they die
unbaptized, or else Jesus Christ will say at the judgment, "Too bad. No water baptism, I never knew
you."
Since you bring up the subject, what about that same soldier who has accepted the gospel message as
a result of the witness of one of his buddies, and suddenly, out of nowhere and unexpectedly, an RPG
slams into their Hummer and both are instantly killed? What a shame that the individual was so remiss
as to not plan ahead for such a circumstance and make preparations to have a baptismal font available.
All for want of a tub of water, the soul was lost. O course you say, they have had opportunities before
then to hear the Gospel and be saved," so they evidently forfeited their opportunity. But, what if the
person was an Islamic Iraqi soldier training with American forces, and it is unlikely that he would have
ever heard the name of Jesus Christ much less been presented with the gospel message even once. Are
you going to make your same assertion that he had opportunity to hear before? If your theology fails in
one instance, it fails in all instances.
How is it that Peter says,
"There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the
answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into
heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to
Him,"
1 Peter 3:21
The baptism that saves is illustrated by the antitype of the people in the ark, which represents the
position of the Christian being in Jesus Christ, as the ark and guarantor of salvation. How much clearer
does the Scripture have to be regarding the true nature of baptism?
In relation to the soldier on the battlefield, you stated, "Thats the old adage of living like you want and
being saved at the last minute." Apparently you are denying the truthfulness of the biblical claim that the
gospel is for every person or that it should be proclaimed to every person. You have gone
farther far astray by rewriting the gospel message to say what the Scripture does not, by asserting that a
confession at the end of a reprobate life is essentially invalid. For you, that type of salvation would be
unacceptable, primarily because the person would go to heaven without accomplishing any works. So,
just what criteria as to the closeness of death do you use in order to deny the offer of salvation to an
individual, and what prophetic gift do you possess in order to know that the death is imminent?
However, you have a major difficulty, because the actions of Jesus Christ toward the Thief on the
Cross disprove your contention that a person cannot obtain salvation at the last minute after a
reprobate life. The thief on the cross lived as he wanted and lived a reprobate life by his own
admission, yet he obtained forgiveness for sins in the last few hours of his life and was with Jesus Christ
after his death. Are you going to assert your same claim against the person in the hospital dying of
cancer, the persons living in the Arctic and desert without sufficient water for baptism? Your denial of
the "old adage" argument won't hold water, and you need to get on board with the Scripture in relation
to the offer of salvation, regardless of to whom, when or where it is offered.
I suggest you read the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard, Matthew 20:1-16, which deals exactly
with this subject.
In relation to the thief on the cross, you are saying that baptism was not a requirement for salvation in
the Old Testament, but somehow it is a requirement under the New Covenant? There are two ways
to obtain salvation? The thief on the cross died under the New Covenant, since Jesus Christ died
before he did. Which covenant are you asserting applied to his case? However, you simply ignore the
issue that the thief had his sins forgiven and obtained salvation without being baptized, which you claim
is not a valid salvation.
What you are saying is that the Holy Spirit can dwell in the unregenerate, which is what you are claiming
was the case in relation to Cornelius, but does not correspond to the testimony of the Scripture. Even in
Acts 2:38, the verse you claim supports baptism as necessary for salvation, notes that forgiveness of
sins precedes the gift of the Holy Spirit. The impartation of the Holy Spirit was not an act of the
apostles, who did not have any control over Him, but was a result of the promise of Jesus Christ that
He would send the Comforter. As for your claim that the impartation of the Holy Spirit (there is no such
entity as the Holy Ghost - He is properly referred to as the Holy Spirit) only occurred prior to baptism
in the time of the apostles but not since, does not compute. The Holy Spirit is received at salvation, not
at baptism. If you are attempting to use Jesus Christ as the example, then are you claiming that His
baptism was for the remission of His sins? That is where your argument takes you, so you should be
very careful if you wish to give the impression that Jesus Christ had sins that needed to be remitted.
Jesus Christ said that His baptism was, "to fulfill all righteousness," not for salvation.
You are apparently making the claim that the Paralytic, Immoral Woman, Tax Collector and the
Apostles did not need to be baptized, since they were under the Old Covenant, but everyone else after
the resurrection of Jesus Christ must be baptized. Are you presuming that if Cornelius, and those who
accepted the gospel with him, had not been baptized that the Holy Spirit would have been withdrawn
and their salvation cancelled? You can't find that anywhere in the Scripture, so how do you explain the
contradiction between your belief and what actually happened?
You haven't explained, if baptism is an integral part of the gospel message necessary for salvation,
why the apostle Paul was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel?
Mark 16:16 is a very poor choice in order to support your case. There are other verses that would
better suit your defense, because Mark 16:9-20 is a later addition to the Scripture not originally written
by Mark. Verse 16 cannot be claimed to be a quote from Jesus Christ.
You restrict the efficacy of the gospel message to the baptismal font, because that is the nature of
legalism, since it is the things that you do that you believe give you standing before God, rather than the
things that Jesus Christ has done for you.
How convenient that you claim that every church that does not conform to the pattern that you assert
does not "worship scripturally".
Your claim about musical instruments is just one more aspect of performance that you believe gives you
standing before God based on what you do or do not do. I don't have any problem with a church that
decides to sing acapella exclusively, but I have a serious issue if you claim that it is more spiritual or
that I am less spiritual for singing with instruments or that it is the only manner in which music must be
used in the church or that the New Testament states that to be the case. The Bible is replete with
references to the use of musical instruments during worship, so you can't make a case that they should
or must be excluded.
If you wish to assert that a person must partake of the Lord's Supper every first day of the week, then
you must also perform it as it was practiced in the early church, which was in concert with a complete
meal, 1 Corinthians 11:20-22. There is no command in the New Testament mandating that the Lord's
Supper must be eaten every first day of the week.
Since tithing is not mentioned in relation to the New Testament church and was not mentioned or taught
by the apostles, then your attempt to claim that failure to tithe is not worshipping scripturally, fails the
test. A person may give from the heart but it may not represent the amount of a tithe, which,
incidentally, is not 10% but was in excess of 25% in the Old Testament. So, if you are not "tithing" at
least that much, then you owe some serious back payments.
How you do church is your particular choice and that of your denomination. However, not every
church does everything the same way and not all cultures worship in the same exact manner. There are
any number of approaches used by pastors in order to determine the nature of the content of their
sermons. The charge by the apostle Paul to Timothy was to preach the word, which includes the gospel
and the Scripture. If you are asserting that the only way a sermon can be given is the pattern used in
your church, then you need to think again. The pastor of the church that I attend has been preaching
verse-by-verse in the Gospel of Luke for the past eight years, and yours? The offer to accept
the salvation message is always presented. There is no Scriptural mandate stating a person must "walk
the aisle" in order to apprehend the gospel message. That is a matter of convenience and tradition, but it
is not necessarily Scriptural.
The simple message of the gospel is not simple in your Church of Christ, because it is convoluted by the
necessity of your performance, not only in relation to baptism, but in relation to adopting the entire
liturgical structure of your adopted church and the assertion that only that organization represents the
true pattern of the New Testament church. That is your loss.
Jesus Christ is building only one true church. It is not a physical organization or specific church
fellowship on earth but a spiritual association in concert of all true believers throughout the world.
#28A
One day the eyes of the Pharasee's will open to realize that they are still not in a personal relationship
with God. I see that Jessee Duplantis is on your hit list. I just wonder in all of your critisim of this man
and others like him, did you ever think of the difference he has made in the lives of others and in the
Kingdom of God.
How is it that you hope to reach the world as Christians, when you can't
come together on what you have in common, instead of condemning each other for wrongs. The Bible
say's that we are suppose ot pick up those who have fallen. If you think Jesse Duplantis is fallen, what
have you done to lift him up to repentance.
The truth is that your heart is full of critism, and critism is a
fruit of fear and darkness. You are just like the Pharasee's, quick to point out the splinter in anothers
eyes, but unable to remove the plank in your own eyes. Love never fails.. Remember that... Love
United States
[179-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Now, you should really know better, because you do not have the authority or the knowledge to
pronounce a judgment on my salvation. Only Jesus Christ has that right and I don't think you wish to
contend with Him over His authority. I have not questioned Jesse Duplantis' salvation, so why do you
presume to question mine because I disagree with what he teaches?
Apparently the person who reveals the problem has a plank in their eye, while the person who teaches
false doctrine is afflicted with only a speck in their eye. I'm not sure where that is found in the Scripture.
#28B
I never questioned your salvation. Christians have planks in their eyes as well as the lost. But I
see nowhere in the Great commission that shows that this is what we are suppose to be doing.
Your site does nothing to edify the body nor those who read it. It is not uplifting. It is the apittamy of the
Law. It points out the failures of others. You know Jesus cast out Satan from Heaven for being the
accuser of the bretheren. If your site does not do what is nessessary the bring about the Kingdom of
Heaven it is not worth-while.
I am not trying to put you down. But instead to beg for your life. A heart that looks for
failures in others, never looks for the opportunity in either the lives of those they kill with their tounges,
nor the damage that they inflict on their own Hearts. The Bible tells me to pick you up and dust you off.
I have handled you in accordance with the Bible. This is how you bring about repentance in others.
Have you ever even sent Jesse a letter? Have you even tried to pick up your fallen brother? Or do you
just like to point out the problems that
others have. Love never falls....
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I see. It's those "other" Pharisees who will realize that they are not in a personal relationship with God -
not this Pharisee. I was worried that you might be referring to me.
NOTE: See the article on Jesse Duplantis"
JESSE DUPLANTIS
#29
I strongly urge you to be careful to be coming against God's anointed.
[189-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE: the article, "Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?"
#30
Your reasoning for why Mormons aren't really Christians is a bit of a stretch don't you think? My [ reference removed] has been mormon for the past 10 years or so I believe
and he carries the King James version of the bible to church along with everyone that goes to his
congregation or ward I think they call it. I used to use the King James version as it was the bible of
Jehovah's Witnesses but we switched for some reason which doesn't make a whole lot of sense but
that's what they decided to do. Anyways I have personally looked at the bible that my brother uses
and it is the same Jesus in my bible, even my new bible it is the same Jesus. I don't understand how
their Jesus is changed. Even in the Book of Mormon which I have read a little bit seems to be talking
of the same Jesus in the bible. I think you should read a part in the Book of Mormon when he comes
to the people of the Americas. It is really interesting and the same Jesus that was in Jeruselem.
[192-Vol 4]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
I am not sure which article you read regarding the Mormon Jesus. There are several articles on the On
Doctrine website that reveal the difficulty.
"The Jesus Christ of the Bible is Not the Same as the Jesus Christ of the Mormon Church"
"The Death of Jesus Christ is not Adequate to Provide for the Forgiveness of Sin"
"The God of the Bible is Not the Same as the God of the Mormon Church"
"The Father of Jesus Christ"
The Mormon church has canonized only a few portions of Joseph Smith's translation, but has
steadfastly refused to canonize the rest. Instead, it uses the King James version in place of the
authoritative translation produced by their prophet. This is done for basically two reasons:
1. The Mormon church can use the King James version and then provide its own interpretation of what
it says, and at the same time reject portions to which it does not agree by using its historical claim that
the Bible was changed by corrupt Catholic priests. That is why the Mormon version of the Bible is filled
with footnotes that attempt to explain the various verses and connect them to the Book of Mormon and
current Mormon doctrine.
2. If the Mormon church accepted the Joseph Smith Translation in its entirety as Scripture, then it
would be faced with the difficulty that Joseph Smith did not translate in accordance with current
Mormon doctrine. In other words, the Mormon church could not change the JST translation without
claiming that their first prophet was in error. Since the Mormon church is unwilling to change its current
doctrines in order to conform to the JST translation, then it is left with only one alternative, and that is to
use the King James Version and make the various changes in order to make it conform to current
teaching.
See the article:
"The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are Superior to the
Bible"
The Mormon church uses the same names and terms that are found in the Bible, but they are defined
differently. Everything sounds the same, but the meanings assigned are completely different.
See the articles:
"Terminology Differences Between Mormon Definitions and Biblical Definitions"
"Doctrinal Differences Between Mormon Doctrine and Biblical Doctrine"
The same situation has occurred in the Jehovah's Witnesses organization. The Jehovah's Witnesses
produced their own "translation" of the Bible and use it in place of the King James Version because the
KJV does not support Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrine. This is especially true in relation to the definition
of the nature, origin and work of Jesus Christ.
See the article:
"Jehovah's Witnesses"
#31
I must say that is sad that Christian organizations such as yourselves spend so much time speaking out
against other Christians. The Word of God and the Bible is there for correction and reproof. Let God
judge whether these preachers are preaching incorrect doctrine. As Christians, we should pray for one
another not spend pointless time like this bashing one another. No wander the sinner does not want to
become SAVED. We need to spend time uniting with one another not fighting each other. Many of
the principles that some of these preachers preach are out of the Bible. My suggestion is this, close
your website and go out and preach the gospel and stop attempting to dispell Christian preachers
doctrine that is based on the Word of God. Or spend your time discrediting people like Ophrah
Windfrey who openly practices New Age religion. Lets show the world that we as Christian can come
together an pray for one another.
United States
[248-Vol 5]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
SEE: the article - Why Do I Criticize God's Anointed?
#32
The LDS or Mormons as some people call them do not believe that Heavenly Father has many wives.
That is a false statement. LDS members do believe that we have a Heavenly Mother, one, that is all.
United States
[253-Vol 6]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
Thank you for your visit and message on the Contact page.
I don't think the Mormon church wishes to present its historic doctrines regarding polygamy and the
godhead for public knowledge in the same manner as many of its other teachings, since it is a subject
that is not considered to be a positive faith building doctrine, and has been a great embarrassment over
the years, but the history of the church has also been a history of polygamy that is attributed directly to
the claimed revelation of God found in the Doctrine and Covenants 132, which is still scripture and has
not been repudiated. Most Mormons seem to view the polygamy issue as an aberration that was
practiced by only a few, but was something that happened a very long time ago and does not matter
today.
The subject of polygamy in this life is a problem in itself, but the fact that it was practiced by the first
prophet, Joseph Smith, and remained in the church for sixty years, and was practiced and condoned by
the prophets after the Manifesto of 1890, reveals just how deeply ingrained it was. The continuing issue
is the teaching by the church that polygamy will be practiced in the next life by those Mormons who are
exalted and achieve godhood. This is not generally known by the ordinary person who is not a Mormon
and probably not by many Mormons either. Doctrine and Covenants 132 specifically states that only
those persons who practice polygamy will attain to exaltation, which was not changed by the Manifesto
of 1890, so it must either be practiced in this life or during the probationary period in the next life in
order for exaltation to occur. The teaching that Heavenly Father and all of those who have become
gods, or will become gods in the future, are polygamists, has not actually been kept secret, so I am not
sure why you say it is not a part of the church. It is part of the church, but is conveniently overlooked so
that the church can present a more positive appearance, but not necessarily an accurate
picture.
Even Jesus Christ is said to have been a polygamist while on the earth, so that makes Him a polygamist
in heaven since His wives would be there, and since He is a god, it cannot be denied that the Mormon
church considers the gods to be polygamists. The teaching that polygamy will be practiced in heaven is
not actively pursued, but that does not mean it is not accepted at the highest levels of authority in the
church.
The whole point of the polygamy doctrine was to assure that in the next life the newly exalted gods
would have enough wives to procreate the billions spirits on their planets (the pre-existence for them)
that would be sent to the earths that they will create. They will not only procreate the spirits for that one
earth, but a succession of earths stretching on into eternity - worlds without end, and wives who will
bear children for eternity - pregnancy without end.
You may not wish to personally embrace the belief, but your prophets and general authorities have
advocated the teaching as a result of a claim of direct revelation from God. Apparently you are not on
the same page with them, but that may cost you the possibility of exaltation, especially if you also reject
the doctrine in the next life.
Here are a few statements by your leaders and others, along with the references, so you can check the
sources:
POLYGAMY FOR THE GODS
"The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with His train; I do no know
who they were, unless His wives and children . . ."
President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 309.
"We have clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in
eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being
upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in the world. We have
also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great
Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also
proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in
time . . . If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious
modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New
Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that
Kingdom,"
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 172.
NOTE: The above quote by apostle Orson Pratt is part of current teaching by the Mormon church, that
Heavenly Father came to earth, married Mary and fathered Jesus Christ. Since Mary is the literal spirit
daughter of Heavenly Father, then He engaged in an incestuous relationship with His own
daughter in order to Father Jesus Christ. So, Heavenly Father had a wife in heaven and a wife, Mary,
on earth, and today both wives are in heaven, but whose wife is she? Is she the wife of God or the wife
of Joseph? Exactly how the marriage between God and Mary was accomplished is not explained by
Mormon theologians since marriages were not performed in the Jewish temple. Apparently God must
have also gotten a divorce from Mary after Jesus Christ was conceived, because prior to His birth,
Mary and Joseph were then married. Joseph Smith's polygamy revelation allows a man to have multiple
wives, but it does not allow women to have multiple husbands, although Joseph Smith married women
who already had husbands, which is called polyandry.
"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and
brought Eve, one of his wives with him,"
President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50.
"If none but Gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must
have one or more wives,"
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158
"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. ...I
heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believe it with all my heart, and I know it is from
God..."
President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269, August 19,
1866.
"Brother Cannon remarked that people wondered how many wives and children I had. He may
inform them, that I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and
dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly,"
President and Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 178.
"Supposing that I have a wife or a dozen of them, and she should say, 'You cannot be exalted
without me,' and suppose they all should say so, what of that? . . . Suppose that I lose the whole of
them before I go into the spirit world, but that I have been a good, faithful man . . . do you think
I will be destitute there. No, the Lord says there are more there than there are here . . . there are
millions of them. . . . we will go to brother Joseph and say, 'Here we are brother Joseph; we are here
ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the
rings on our fingers"' He will say to us, 'Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of
clothes. Where are your wives?' 'They are back yonder; they would not follow us.' 'Never mind,' says
Joseph. 'Here are thousands, have all you want,'"
First Presidency Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 209.
"In the case of a man marrying a wife in the everlasting covenant who dies while he continues in
the flesh and marries another by the same divine law, each wife will come forth in her order and enter
with him into his glory"
First Presidency Charles W. Penrose, Mormon Doctrine Plain and Simple, or Leaves from the Tree
of Life, p.66, 1897, Salt Lake City, UT
Harold Be Lee, eleventh president of the church, remarried after the death of his wife and wrote the
following poem:
"My lovely Joan was sent to me: So Joan joins Fern
That three might be, more fitted for eternity.
O Heavenly Father, my thanks to thee'"
President Harold B. Lee, as quoted in the Deseret News 1974 Church Almanac, p.
17
President Lee planned on being a polygamist after his exaltation to godhood.
"What is eternal life? It is to have 'a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.' No one receives
eternal life except those who receive the exaltation. Eternal life is the greatest gift of God; immortality is
not."
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.9:
"[C]ontinuation of the seeds forever" is procreation of children in the next life and can only
be accomplished by those who have been exalted, which is to become a god and is said to be eternal
life.
NECESSARY FOR EXALTATION
"Now, where a man in this church says, 'I don't want but one wife, I will live my religion with
one,' he will perhaps be saved in the Celestial kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in
possession of any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forward and say,
'Here is that which thou gavest me, I have not wasted it, and here is the one talent,' and he will not
enjoy it but it will be taken and given to those who have improved the talents they received, and he will
find himself without any wife, and he will remain single forever and ever."
President and Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, September 17, 1873.
"[A] man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this
one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if
faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is
no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over
worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring."
Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, 1986; also see Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines
of Salvation, 1955, v. 2, p. 48
THE PRACTICE ON EARTH
"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto my servants N.K. Whitney, the thing that my servant Joseph Smith has
made known unto you and your family and which you have agreed is right in mine eyes... These are the
words which you shall pronounce unto my servant Joseph and your daughter S.A. Whitney. They shall
take each other by the hand and you shall say, You both mutually agree, calling them by name, to be
each other’s companion so long as you both shall live... If you both agree to the covenant and do this,
I then give you, S.A. Whitney, my daughter, to Joseph Smith, to be his wife... Let immortality and
eternal life hereafter be sealed upon your heads forever and ever."
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. revelation, in The Strange Marriages of Sarah Ann Whitney, by
Michael Marquardt, p. 23
"I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March 1843... My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph
a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith."
Historical Record, v. 6, p. 240
SEE: Leviticus 18:18
"Sylvia Pratt, Patty's daughter and the wife of Windsor J. Lyon, was already sealed to Joseph. This
afternoon she was to put her mother's hand in the Prophet's." [Joseph Smith].
Intimate Disciple: A Portrait of Willard Richards, Apostle to Joseph Smith, cousin of Brigham
Young, by Claire Augusta Wilcox Noall
SEE: Leviticus 20:14
"The marriage to the Lawrence sisters became public knowledge when William Law, Joseph's [Joseph
Smith, Jr.] second counselor in the First Presidency, became alienated from the prophet.... On May 23
he filed suit against the Mormon leader in Hancock County Circuit Court, at Carthage, charging that
Smith had been living with Maria Lawrence ‘in an open state of adultery’ from October 12, 1843, to
the day of the suit. In response, Smith flatly denied polygamy in a speech delivered on May 26."
In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, pp. 476-477
"I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that
has been revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that it is a necessity, and that the Church of
Christ in its fullness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to
have plural marriage; bound to; and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing
ordinances,"
Apostle George Teasdale, Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, p.21.
"In addition to this, and to co-operate with it, it has been made known by revelation, that it will be
pleasing to the Lord, should they form a matrimonial alliance with the Natives; and by this means the
Elders, who comply with the thing so pleasing to the Lord, and for which the Lord has promised to
bless those who do it abundantly, gain a residence in the Indian territory, independent of the agent. It
has been made known to one, who has left his wife in the state of N.Y. that he is entirely free from his
wife, and he is at liberty to take him a wife from among the Lamanites. It was easily perceived that his
permission was perfectly suited to his desires. I have frequently heard him state, that the Lord had made
it known to him, that he is as free from his wife as from any other woman; and the only crime that I have
ever heard alleged against her is, she is violently opposed to Mormonism."
Ezra Booth, Ohio Star, December 8, 1831
"Yes, [polygamy is] one of the relics of Adam, of Enoch, of Noah, of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob, of
Moses, David, Solomon, the Prophets, of Jesus, and his apostles."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 11, p. 328
"Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort
of superfluity, or non-essential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have
said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and
eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more
than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false. . . . Therefore, whoever
has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by
complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. . . . it is useless to
tell me that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law, or that a man with only one wife can
obtain as great a reward, glory or kingdom as he can with more than one,"
President and Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pp. 28-31.
"Plural marriage is a pattern of marriage designed by God as part of His plan of eternal
progress to further His kingdom and exalt His children,"
John J. Stewart, Brigham Young and His Wives, 1961, p. 71.
"SONS OF GOD BECOME GODS. If the faithful, who keep the commandments of the Father,
are his sons, then they are heirs of the kingdom and shall receive of the fulness of the Father's glory,
even until they become like the Father. And how can they be perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect
if they are not like him? . . . And if they receive his fulness and his glory, and if "all things are
theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs," how can they
receive these blessings and not become gods? They cannot."
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.39:
"When the servants of God and their wives go to heaven there is an eternal union, and they will
multiply and replenish the world to which they are going."
Apostle Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854, Journal of Discourses, Vol.2, p.85 - p.86
"On the morning of the 12th of July, 1843; Joseph and Hyrum Smith came into the office.... They were
talking on the subject of plural marriage. Hyrum said to Joseph, 'If you will write the revelation on
celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and
you will hereafter have peace.' Joseph smiled and remarked, 'You do not know Emma as well as I do.'
... Joseph then said, 'Well I will write the revelation and we will see.'...
Hyrum then took the revelation to read to Emma. Joseph remained with me in the office until Hyrum
returned. When he came back, Joseph asked him how he had succeeded. Hyrum replied that he had
never received a more severe talking to in his life, that Emma was very bitter and full of resentment and
anger.
Joseph quietly remarked, 'I told you you did not know Emma as well as I did.' Joseph then put the
revelation in his pocket, and they both left the office.
... Two or three days after the revelation was written Joseph related to me and several others that
Emma had so teased, and urgently entreated him for the privilege of destroying it, that he became so
weary of her teasing, and to get rid of her annoyance, he told her she might destroy it and she had done
so, but he had consented to her wish in this matter to pacify her, realizing that he knew the revelation
perfectly, and could rewrite it at any time if necessary."
History of the Church, Introduction to v. 5, pp. XXXII-XXXIII
A FEW DENIALS
"The Latter-day Saints, from the rise of the Church in 1830, till the year 1843, had no authority to
marry any more than one wife each. To have done otherwise, would have been a great
transgression."
Millennial Star, v. 19, p. 475
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can
only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all
perjurers."
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, May 26, 1844, p. 411
NOTE: In the above quote, Joseph Smith not only denied that he had any polygamous relationships, he
claimed that other people were stating that he had 7 wives. He was only partly right, because when he
made his statement, he had at least 14 wives.
"The law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive
at once..."
Times and Seasons, Nov. 15, 1844, v. 5, p. 715
"We are accused here of polygamy, and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that
none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit
to belief..."
Prophet John Taylor, as cited in Orson Pratt’s Works: Or the Doctrines of the Gospel, by
Orson Pratt, 1851 ed., p. 80
NOTE: When prophet John Taylor made the above statement of denial in 1850, he had at least 6
wives.
A SPIN ON MORALITY
" This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the
evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans
"
Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195
"Some of the nations of Europe who believe in the one wife system have actually forbidden a plurality of
wives by their laws; and the consequences are that the whole country among them is overrun with the
most abominable practices: adulteries and unlawful connections through all their villages, towns, cities,
and country places to a most fearful extent."
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 12
"Sisters, do you wish to make yourselves happy? Then what is your duty? It is for you to bear
children... are you tormenting yourselves by thinking that your husbands do not love you? I would not
care whether they loved a particle or not; but I would cry out, like one of old, in the joy of my heart, ‘I
have got a man from the Lord! Hallelujah! I am a mother..."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 37
"It is the duty of the first wife to regard her husband not with a selfish devotion... she must regard her
husband with indifference, and with no other feeling than that of reverence, for love we regard as a false
sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy... we believe in the good old custom by
which marriages should be arranged by the parents of the young people."
Zina Huntington, wife of Prophet Brigham Young, New York World, November 17, 1869, as
cited in The Lion of the Lord, pp. 229-230
"Do you think that I am an old man? I could prove to this congregation that I am young; for I could find
more girls who would choose me for a husband than can carry any of the young men."
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 210
"Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such
a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman Empire... Rome became the mistress of the
world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this
monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a hold sacrament and divine
institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers."
Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, August 6, 1862
The history of the Mormon church and the doctrines that it teaches are available, and do not necessarily
reflect the version that you are taught within the church itself. You can do your own research on the
subject, because what you discover for yourself is the only thing that will have meaning to you.
#33
What denomination is this? It doesn't sound like a Christian denomination. Is there an address or
phone number to contact a real person? Or are you too afraid to expose who you really are? I thought
Christians were suppose to love each other. This organization sounds like it is full of hate. At least Oral
Roberts never said anything bad about any body, even when he disagrees with people he continues to
love them and not waste his time writing hateful things about people, but preaching Faith, Hope and
Love, and seeing people healed, just like Jesus wants to see people healed. True believers will do what
Jesus did, and even greater things. You guys don't sound like you love people. You want people to stay
sick, broke, and miserable, and depend on welfare checks and not have any strength to work. And you
have seriously exaggerated Oral Roberts position on wealth. Wealth is being content in the LORD and
being obedient to Him, and if God chooses to make one financially rich that is His perogat
United States
[271-Vol 6]
ON DOCTRINE NOTE:
You were able to contact a real person by using the On Doctrine Contact Page which is why it exists.
You can go to the About page at,
www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm and find out more about me. You could have done that before
you wrote, since I provide that link on the Home Page and on almost every major category page on the
website, including the article about Oral Roberts. On Doctrine is not a denomination, is not associated
with a denomination or church and is not an organization or ministry.
Just because I have some very substantial disagreements with Oral Roberts does not mean that I am
not a Christian, and you should not allow yourself to make that claim. Only Jesus Christ can judge a
person's salvation, which defines a Christian, and I don't think you really wish to make an attempt to
usurp His position. When I receive a note such as yours, I always comment that you do not realize the
contradiction between what you claim that I am doing and what you are doing. If criticism is forbidden
to me, then it is also forbidden to you.
If you believe that following Oral Roberts will bring health, wealth, happiness and security into your life
then there is nothing that I can say that will make a difference. My concern is pointed in a different
direction, because I deal with the doctrines that Oral Roberts teaches in relation to the Scripture and
the statements that he makes regarding what he claims the Scripture says, which it may not. Then there
is the issue of his false revelations, which make God into a liar, and Oral Roberts has never apologized
or repented of that conduct.
If you read the article on Oral Roberts, then you should be concerned with those issues that were
presented. If you are not concerned, then your agenda is to solely defend Oral Roberts, which you
must do from the Scripture, not an emotional reaction to something that you don't like. My agenda is to
present a defense of the Scripture and the character and integrity of God.
I suggest you visit the un-Quotable Quotes page and look at some of the statements that Oral Roberts
has made. If you can provide a biblical defense for his statements, then I would be willing to discuss the
issues. You can find the page at:
www.ondoctrine.com/unquotes/robeoral.htm
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