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| CONVERSATIONS WITH A MORMON |
| The Conception And Birth Of Jesus Christ, God Conceived Himself If A Person Believes In The Trinity, Mary Could Not Be In The Presence Of God And Live, The Holy Ghost Could Not Beget A Child |
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The Mormon Challenge Monday, July 7 Hello Gary, I found this in your site about Brigham Young explanation of the conception and birth of Christ. "The Bible narrative gives a very detailed explanation of the announcement of the birth of Jesus Christ and the means by which He was conceived. It might seem very strange that the Mormon church would adopt teachings that are directly contradicted by the Bible. However, this approach is not unique in regards to the means by which Mormon doctrine is established. As with all doctrines regarding God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, they have all been altered from the Biblical teaching in order to conform to Mormon teaching.According to the Bible your assertion about the conception of Jesus Christ is incorrect as per your own quotes. The first quote: Matt 1:18 states that Mary was found with CHILD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT... The second quote: Luke 1:35 states that the power of the MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU... We must, then, ask the question: Who did conceive Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit or the Most High God? See a couple of possibilities: 1. If you believe that God is three in one, then you will have to admit that God conceived Himself in Mary, and, at the same time he was born on the earth he was in heaven directing the affairs of himself, the son on the earth. With all respect to your beliefs but, this is confusing, you will have to admit that it is a weird doctrine. (That is a weirdness akin to think that the God on the cross asked himself why he himself has abandoned himself.) 2. However, if you believe that there are a Most High God and a Son of the Most High God, which is Jesus Christ, a separate personage, then, it makes sense that the Most High God would come and be with Mary overshadowing her with His power to conceive His Son in the flesh. Then, when the Son was upon the earth taking care of His Father's business, His Father was in Heaven directing Him on earth through the Holy Ghost. This is, at least, very logical. Furthermore, you would also believe that: Mary was an earthly human, who had a mortal, frail, body and could not be in the presence of God physically without being consumed (the mortal Adam was send away from the physical presence of God, remember). Therefore she needed to be prepared in a way (that we don't understand) to be in the presence of God physically. Therefore, it stands to reason that the Holy Ghost prepared her, sanctifying her and protecting her mortal body from being consumed so the Most High God could overshadow her. You'd also believe that spirits don't do physical things that those that have physical bodies do. For example, Jesus ate and drunk after His resurrection in front of the apostles to prove to them He was not just a spirit. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, so to be in agreement with Jesus statements, He, the Holy Ghost could not begot a physical son as we know it. Hence, Luke says that the "power of the Most High would overshadowed Mary," after the Holy Spirit had prepared and sanctified her. On Doctrine Reply You have based your argument on a misunderstanding and misapplication of the definition of the Christian Trinity, and have adopted the same type of argument presented by other Mormons who have claimed that a belief in the Trinity means that Jesus Christ prayed to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane, so you say that "God conceived Himself in Mary," which is essentially the same type of claim. Those statements do not represent the nature of the Christian Trinity and are improper definitions used for effect, but have no substance. The Christian Trinity is a unity of beings within and as one God, and is properly defined as: "Within the one eternal being of God there exists three eternally existing persons." The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. They are three persons within the one being of God, each one possessing all of the attributes of God. That is why the Holy Spirit could come upon Mary as a creative act and it can be stated that she would be overshadowed by the power of the Most High - there is no substantive difference between the members of the Godhead, because they all represent, have and are the power of God and are corporally one God. The difficulty that you must face, is that your same criticism must also be directed toward the Book of Mormon, because if you accept the definition of God as presented in the Book of Mormon, then you must claim exactly that Jesus Christ prayed to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane and that God fathered Himself, because the Book of Mormon presents a modalistic God, who is only one person and who simply appears in different forms as different individuals. The Book of Mormon does not present a God who is separate from the Son - they are one person, so, in the Garden of Gethsemane it was God who appeared as Jesus Christ, and when He prayed, He prayed to Himself as God. The Holy Ghost is not even part of the equation in the Book of Mormon, because Joseph Smith did not originally believe that the Holy Ghost was a personage, but simply the mind or power of God. The modalism of the Book of Mormon means that there is no actual Jesus Christ or Holy Ghost, because they are just apparitions or illusions manufactured by God in which He alone appears in different forms in order to give the appearance of real beings who do not actually exist in reality. Current Mormon teaching regarding the godhead, which was not known until the King Follett discourse of 1844, is not the same as that found in the Book of Mormon which has very Trinitarian overtones but is more closely aligned with modalistic belief, which asserts that there is one God who appears, assumes the role of or expresses himself as the Father or the Son, depending on which role he wishes to portray. ". . . Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. . ." Book of Mormon, Ether 3:14 "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else." Book of Mormon, Alma 11:38-40 "For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary." Book of Mormon, Mosiah 3:5, 8 You must also consider the following verses that have been changed in the Book of Mormon from the first printing in 1830 to say something completely different in current editions, in order to conform to the new belief system established by the Living Prophet, Joseph Smith: BOOK OF MORMON, 1830 edition "And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved." 1 Nephi 13:40, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1982 edition "And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the SON OF the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved." 1 Nephi 13:40, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1830 edition "And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh." 1 Nephi 11:18, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1982 edition "And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the SON OF God, after the manner of the flesh." 1 Nephi 11:18, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1830 edition "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?" 1 Nephi 11:21, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1982 edition "And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the SON OF the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?" 1 Nephi 11:21, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1830 edition "And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." 1 Nephi 11:32, Book of Mormon BOOK OF MORMON, 1982 edition "And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the SON OF the Everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." 1 Nephi 11:32, Book of Mormon One of those "plain and precious things which have been taken away," was the teaching that Jesus Christ is both the Father and the Son, and it was deliberately removed from the Book of Mormon in four places, not from the Bible. Your second point would be very logical if what you claim is actually what happened, is actually what is described in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and is what is defined in Trinitarian doctrine. But those sources do not support your idea. The Book of Mormon says that Jesus Christ was fathered by the Holy Ghost: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." Alma 7:10 You are presented with two very clear and straightforward statements in the Book of Mormon that don't require any interpretation by a prophet: 1. Mary would "conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost ..." 2. The result would be a son, "yea, even the Son of God." Unless you wish to redefine the meaning of the English language, you are left with the reality that your own Scripture states that the Holy Ghost performed the act of conception and that the Son of God is the same as the Son of the Holy Ghost. That would make sense if current Mormon theology represented the idea that the Holy Ghost was the manifestation of the power of God, which is what Joseph Smith originally taught. But current Mormon theology, a result of continuing revelation through the Living Prophets beginning with Joseph Smith who changed his mind, states that the Holy Ghost is a personage and not simply a power or emanation from the mind of the Father. It is now claimed that the Holy Spirit is the power of God, not the Holy Ghost. But the Book of Mormon states that the Holy Ghost fathered Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit. The name, Holy Ghost, is a King "Jamesism" adopted from the KJV translation, which is a name or term misapplied, and in this case to a person who should be properly addressed as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the same person, not a mystical power and a person. There is no such entity as a ghost, so the Holy Ghost should properly be addressed as the Holy Spirit. The fact that Joseph Smith included the term Holy Ghost in the Book of Mormon is a strong indication that he obtained his ideas from the King James Bible and erroneously included the term without understanding the error of its usage or the implication that indicated his revelation was in fact a plagiarism. When the Book of Mormon is said to present the Holy Ghost defined as a personage, separate from the Father, then it is not possible to claim that it was the Father who conceived Jesus Christ with Mary, and still be true to the Book of Mormon, because God the Father is not the Holy Ghost - they are two separate individuals. The difficulty finds its root in the "Pre-existence Doctrine" currently taught in the Mormon church but is not found in the Book of Mormon because it was originated through continuing revelation by the Living Prophets. In the pre-existence, God the Father, along with one of his wives, procreated the spirit of Mary, so she is a literal and actual child of God the Father, born of, by and through the procreative substance and act of the Father and His wife. The problem is that current Mormon theology states that God the Father had literal sexual relations with Mary, in order to produce the temporal body of Jesus Christ, whose spirit was the literal and actual brother of the spirit of Mary, not only in the pre-existence but in the temporal world as well. As a result, God committed an incestuous act with His own daughter, and Mary became the mother of her own brother and, consequently, Jesus Christ was the brother of His own mother. When it is said that God and man (specifically Mary) are composed of the same substance and have the same origin, then you have imposed a moral issue into your explanation of how Jesus Christ was fathered. The issue comes down to the inescapable fact that God the Father had literal and actual sexual relations with His daughter Mary in order to procreate the temporal body of Jesus Christ into which His spirit would enter. God the Father had an incestuous relationship with His own daughter, which means that He was a sinner by His own definition, Leviticus 18:6. To whom did God repent for that sin and what act did He accomplish as an atonement? If the Mormon prophets had remained with the original teaching that the Holy Ghost was the power of God, then it could have been claimed that the temporal body of Jesus Christ was created by the power of God. However, even that claim has its problems since the Mormon God does not have the ability to create, but only organize existing matter into other structures. The "overshadowing" attributed to the Holy Ghost (Book of Mormon) and the coming upon by the Holy Spirit (Bible), explains the reality that the fathering of Jesus Christ was a creative act and not a sexual act. The modalism of the Book of Mormon presents God as the father of Jesus Christ by appearing in the form of the Holy Ghost. However, current Mormon theology does not allow that option, since God is not a spirit, but a personage of tabernacle and has an actual physical body requiring a physical sexual act in order to accomplish procreation. You have presented what you believe is a logical theory as to how the Holy Ghost prepared Mary to be in the presence of God, but it cannot even be defined as a theory since it has no connection to the explanation presented in the Book of Mormon, is not supported in the Bible and has no possibility of being considered legitimate. First, your contention is that Mary could not be in the presence of God without being consumed or dying. That is certainly not the case in the Bible, because Adam and Eve communed with God before their fall and were confronted by God after their fall and even carried on a conversation with Him. They were not consumed at that time and they were not sent away from the garden out of His presence because they would be consumed. You have confused what the Scripture says in relation to Moses and God: "But He said, 'You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!'" Exodus 33:20 (NAS) It is not being in the presence of God that will cause a person to be consumed, it is seeing God that will bring about that result. If he had seen the face of God, even Moses would have died. Your theory about the Holy Ghost sanctifying and preparing Mary so that she could be in the presence of God while He impregnated her is a fantasy, both in relation to the teaching found in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, because those ideas are not expressed in either book. What you are doing is engaging in a speculation in the attempt to reconcile what is a very big and embarrassing problem in Mormon theology. Secondly, you must ignore the teaching of the Book of Mormon and the Bible that states specifically that it was the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary and not that God came to her physically in order to procreate Jesus Christ. You justify that by claiming that spirits don't do physical things that those with physical bodies do. However, it is only the Mormon God who is prevented from certain actions since He is defined as a personage of tabernacle and has limited abilities, although He was originally defined as a spirit in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith, who later changed his mind. The God of the Bible has none of the limitations inherent in the Mormon God, and can accomplish any action that He might choose. Many Mormons have asked me why I think it is so important that the God of the Bible can create from nothing. Your reasoning that the spirit is incapable of dealing with the temporal is exactly the reason, because you impose a restriction on God that does not exist in the Bible, but only in current Mormon thought. In Mormon theology, God, man and substance (the temporal) are composed of the same material that pre-existed any man, any God or any temporal structure. In Orthodox theology, God, man and substance are not composed of the same material, because God has existed uncreated as He is now from eternity, and it was He who created man and substance. God as a spirit has control over His creation, and He is not subject to His creation, because He did not just organize it, He brought it forth from nothing. The God of Orthodoxy is a creator, not just an organizer. Mormon theology and Orthodox theology are mutually exclusive, because they present differing and opposite world views that cannot be reconciled. Mormon theology presents a universe (which includes everything that is including God) as an animate, living entity not originally existing in its current form but originating from eternally existing "material" that eventually became man, God and the physical universe as it exists. This "material" in itself is composed of living entities that combine to form everything that is, including the pre-spirit forms of the spirit beings born in the pre-existence. This explanation is used by Mormons to resolve the issue of how God could have always existed when He first had to be born as a spirit being and then had to be a man before becoming a God. The explanation is that God existed from eternity within the pre-existing "material", but not yet formed or organized into His spirit in the pre-existence. That really does not answer the question, but only pushes it farther back into time. That explanation does not give an answer to the question of how it can be said that God has existed from eternity, because it only reveals that every human being had the same eternal existence within the pre-existing "material" so the eternity of God is no different than the eternity of every other human being, because His eternal existence was as a man and not a God which He had to later become. That is the confirmation of the fact that Mormon theology starts with the existence of man before the existence of God. In that theology, God has existed for eternity as pre-spirit "material" but not as a God, since He had to first had to go through the process of being a man before going the through process of becoming a God. That is not an acceptable explanation, because it is like saying that a house has existed prior to its construction because it is made out of trees, metal, sand and cement that existed prior to the time that the blueprints were drawn. That is a poor definition of eternally existing in relation to God just as it is equally poor in relation to a house. The reality is, the pre-existent "material" and the living entities that are its composition, who move, associate and disassociate by their own will, are the actual power and eternal composition of God, man and the universe and are the real God makers. The Christian Trinity does not have any of the restrictions imposed by Mormon theology on its God and associated gods, and eliminates the problem inherent in the Mormon teaching that God is limited to organizational ability and devoid of creational ability, therefore, it was necessary for God to resort to an immoral act with His own daughter to father Jesus Christ. Since you believe that it takes a physical God to beget a physical son, how is it that the Mormon God and a wife, who are physical beings, can beget spiritual beings in the pre-existence? That is a major contradiction in the Mormon belief system, because it imposes prohibitions on what God can and cannot do in one instance and then ignores them in another instance. Mormon theology starts with man as the beginning, because God had to first be a man before becoming a God, and then interprets God in relation to the nature of man. That is why you cannot get past the idea that the substance of God is no more than His material body. Mormon theology presents a God who is limited by a body, and cannot overcome the restrictions that are imposed by that body: "What is God? He is a material organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. He is in the form of a man, and is, in fact, of the same species... This being cannot occupy two distinct places at once, therefore he cannot be everywhere present." (LDS) prophet, president and seer Joseph Smith, The Millennial Star, Vol. 6 Although exalted, Mormons consider God to be just like a human man. That is not what God says about Himself in the Bible, Psalm 50:21. "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" Numbers 24:19 In relation to your final statement, Luke said nothing about the Holy Spirit preparing and sanctifying Mary. That is a concept that you have added to the Scripture. If you believe the Mormon explanation about the birth of Jesus Christ, then you cannot accept the biblical claim that the power of God would overshadow Mary (since the power of God is defined by Mormon theology as the Holy Spirit), because the overshadowing is not said to be a spiritual act but a physical act by which the Father literally engaged in a sexual act with Mary. "Each of these words is to be understood Literally. Only means only; begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, "Mormon Doctrine," pp. 546-547 What you [are] claiming is that I believe that it was the Holy Ghost, as a spiritual being, who fathered Jesus Christ in a sexual manner in the same way that you believe that God the Father fathered Jesus Christ in a literal sexual manner. So you presume a contradiction, since you claim a spiritual being cannot father a physical being. But that is your definition regarding what you think Orthodox theology is stating, which is totally erroneous. The fathering of Jesus Christ in Orthodox theology was a creative act, not a sexual act, and was accomplished by the person of the Holy Spirit in relation to the Trinitarian doctrine. As a member of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit possesses all of the attributes of God in concert with the Father and the Son which includes the attribute of Creator. That is exactly the reason that it is not only desirable but absolutely necessary that God be a creator and not simply an organizer of existing matter like the Mormon God. Since the Mormon Holy Ghost and God the Father are separate beings apart from each other, and God can only organize and procreate physically, He is forced to engage in an immoral sexual act with His daughter in order to be the father of the temporal body of Jesus Christ. The Trinitarian Godhead has no such limitations and maintains the moral purity and integrity of God by means of a creative act. The Mormon God sacrifices His own moral standard in order to accomplish an action which He cannot achieve by any other means, due to the limitations of His physical nature and His inability to know the future in relation to the moral consequences of His action. |
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